Special Branch and their interpretation of the Anti-Terrorism laws.
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It's all sorted. The Boss came in to see us today and after all of this, they have totally backed down and agreed with everything we have put to them. I did print out the Act and highlighted all the salient points, but it wasn't necessary as they didn't argue.
He has even promised to sort out the snafu that ended up with one of our chaps getting a written warning.
So to make it all clear. As we all know, you only need to give 12 hours notification if you are going to IOM, CI, Eire or Northern Ireland. You do not need to give notice if you are going to any other islands. You certainly won't be needing to give notice if you are flying within the UK!
A victory for common sense, but what a waste of effort. Thanks for all the advice.
He has even promised to sort out the snafu that ended up with one of our chaps getting a written warning.
So to make it all clear. As we all know, you only need to give 12 hours notification if you are going to IOM, CI, Eire or Northern Ireland. You do not need to give notice if you are going to any other islands. You certainly won't be needing to give notice if you are flying within the UK!
A victory for common sense, but what a waste of effort. Thanks for all the advice.
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The boss had some of the same ideas, specifically about the definition of Islands, but they seem to have "educated" themselves. From the sound of it, I don't think we'll be seeing the original officer anymore either.......
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Interesting story - well done, Say Again!
As a fairly frequent sender of the General Aviation Report Forms, I know that police forces all over the UK have different ideas as to how the Act is to be applied in practice. Most seem to believe that some form of "permission" must be obtained from them. I don't know how a visitor to these islands from some other part of Europe is supposed to cope with the lack of uniformity and sheer awkwardness of the decentralised system.
The first issue that the foreign visitor is faced with is who to send the GAR form to? The fax numbers on the commonly-used form are mostly obsolete. Guides such as Pooleys don't tell you which police force covers each airfield. Usually it takes at least several phone calls to identify a person or number to send the form to - then the number doesn't work or is engaged. Even after you succeed in sending it, it seems to frequently be the case that Officer X, who is responsible for this in his force, doesn't actually get the form. So if you're challenged you'd better have proof that your fax/email was sent to a relevant number. Then eventually when you have got someone to deal with, and make the same flight again 6 months later, he/she has been ressigned and you have the same palaver all over again.
I too have been subjected to long delays after arriving at non-TA designated airfields while the police check up my "story" that I did send them the GAR form 12 hours earlier.
I too have also been refused permission to leave a TA designated airport (not Newcastle!) without giving 12 hours notice.
One midlands police force's website - I cant find it tonight - says that it wants all flights arriving into its area from outside the UK to give 12 hours GAR form notice; this would include private flights from say France, which are not covered by the Act as quoted above.
Many police forces appear to believe emphatically that their explicit permission is required to fly privately to/from a non-TA designated GB airfield. In practice for my one-off flights I just have to humour them - educating the police can only lead to a pyrrhic victory at best.
If all this nonsense was conferring some obvious security benefit for the UK it would be easier to understand. The logic (if any) of why a flight from Alderney or IoM to England should require more scrutiny than one from Cherbourg escapes me entirely..........
As a fairly frequent sender of the General Aviation Report Forms, I know that police forces all over the UK have different ideas as to how the Act is to be applied in practice. Most seem to believe that some form of "permission" must be obtained from them. I don't know how a visitor to these islands from some other part of Europe is supposed to cope with the lack of uniformity and sheer awkwardness of the decentralised system.
The first issue that the foreign visitor is faced with is who to send the GAR form to? The fax numbers on the commonly-used form are mostly obsolete. Guides such as Pooleys don't tell you which police force covers each airfield. Usually it takes at least several phone calls to identify a person or number to send the form to - then the number doesn't work or is engaged. Even after you succeed in sending it, it seems to frequently be the case that Officer X, who is responsible for this in his force, doesn't actually get the form. So if you're challenged you'd better have proof that your fax/email was sent to a relevant number. Then eventually when you have got someone to deal with, and make the same flight again 6 months later, he/she has been ressigned and you have the same palaver all over again.
I too have been subjected to long delays after arriving at non-TA designated airfields while the police check up my "story" that I did send them the GAR form 12 hours earlier.
I too have also been refused permission to leave a TA designated airport (not Newcastle!) without giving 12 hours notice.
One midlands police force's website - I cant find it tonight - says that it wants all flights arriving into its area from outside the UK to give 12 hours GAR form notice; this would include private flights from say France, which are not covered by the Act as quoted above.
Many police forces appear to believe emphatically that their explicit permission is required to fly privately to/from a non-TA designated GB airfield. In practice for my one-off flights I just have to humour them - educating the police can only lead to a pyrrhic victory at best.
If all this nonsense was conferring some obvious security benefit for the UK it would be easier to understand. The logic (if any) of why a flight from Alderney or IoM to England should require more scrutiny than one from Cherbourg escapes me entirely..........
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Personally I reckon there has been a bit of emailing been going on.
I know one of the strathclyde police dive team has a PPL and he ain't the shy retiring type. Especially in the Oban bar.
A couple of the Chief inspectors have been seen out in PIK in light aircraft so I wouldn't be suprised if the old emails have gone up then come down thanks to PPrune.
Maybe highlighting which forces have miss-information would clear things up.
I know one of the strathclyde police dive team has a PPL and he ain't the shy retiring type. Especially in the Oban bar.
A couple of the Chief inspectors have been seen out in PIK in light aircraft so I wouldn't be suprised if the old emails have gone up then come down thanks to PPrune.
Maybe highlighting which forces have miss-information would clear things up.
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We had the local SB pop in one Sunday afternoon (double time?), to request that they have all our memebers e-mail addresses as well as normal details, for their files....might be a while before they get'em.
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I am the 'chap' referred to in 'Say Again Slowly' quote below.
SB visited our RTF yesterday to clarify to myself & 'Say Again Slowly' that their information WAS wrong and the information we had been abiding by WAS CORRECT. A total backdown and things should get back to normal.
Thanks to all the constructive input on this forum.
However, this is not yet the end of the matter
This would be laughable, if it wasn't for the fact that this SB unit has already given one of our chaps a written warning under the Terrorism Act for not having given 12 hours notice.
Thanks to all the constructive input on this forum.
However, this is not yet the end of the matter
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What the police can ask you for under the Terrorism Act 2000 is set out in the "Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 (Information) Order 2002"
It is here, for anyone who wants to read it:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20021945.htm
It does not include email addresses
It is here, for anyone who wants to read it:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20021945.htm
It does not include email addresses
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Great result and a wonderful illustration of the way the power of the internet has enabled a widely dispersed group with similar interests to share information and experiences.
At one time this sort of unilateral action by SB would have gone un-noticed in the wider aviation community - not any more. All sorts of useful information and personal results of encounters posted, as well as links to the various Acts, AIP etc.
I intend to test the matter of informing the police under Schedule 7.12.3b which states that a pilot shall not fly from a non-designated port to the IOM, CIs, Eire or NI unless......he gives at least 12 hours notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated .....by handing written notice to the local plod not SB, next time a have a flight that qualifies. I'll post the result of that encounter here!
Good work by all.
neutron
At one time this sort of unilateral action by SB would have gone un-noticed in the wider aviation community - not any more. All sorts of useful information and personal results of encounters posted, as well as links to the various Acts, AIP etc.
I intend to test the matter of informing the police under Schedule 7.12.3b which states that a pilot shall not fly from a non-designated port to the IOM, CIs, Eire or NI unless......he gives at least 12 hours notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated .....by handing written notice to the local plod not SB, next time a have a flight that qualifies. I'll post the result of that encounter here!
Good work by all.
neutron
Last edited by neutron; 9th Nov 2006 at 10:46.
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I intend to test the matter of informing the police under Schedule 7.12.3b which states that a pilot shall not fly from a non-designated port to the IOM, CIs, Eire or NI unless......he gives at least 12 hours notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated .....by handing written notice to the local plod not SB, next time a have a flight that qualifies. I'll post the result of that encounter here!
Good work by all.
Good work by all.
dp
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I heard a story of some people coming back from the CI to some airfield in the UK. They got a call from Solent that they were to divert to Southampton, which they did and were met by SB. SB Carted them off and interviewed them, it turns out that SB had "lost" the GAR. The matter was eventually cleared up and they were sent on their way.
Whilst in controlled airspace, can an ATCO direct you to land somewhere, that is not on your route?
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Yes they can. If they are told by the police, they can issue an order to land somewhere of their choosing. I was told a story about this yesterday by one of the controllers at EDI. He'd been told to order an microlight to land a while ago, as they hadn't given notification of a flight from Ireland.
Supposedly they'd done this a few times and it had been known about by plod each time.
Supposedly they'd done this a few times and it had been known about by plod each time.
