Special Branch and their interpretation of the Anti-Terrorism laws.
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One thing that is confusing me slightly is the phrase "(1) This paragraph applies to a journey-
(a) to Great Britain from the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands."
Which Islands are they talking about. Have I missed a definition somewhere?
(a) to Great Britain from the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands."
Which Islands are they talking about. Have I missed a definition somewhere?
Section 121 Terrorism Act 2000
121. In this Act-
[...]
"the Islands" means the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man,
[...]
"the Islands" means the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man,
dp
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.....but remember, file with SB!
This should be an interesting topic to follow, can remember first hearing in May our local SB were out to make an example of someone! Be rather hiliarious if it back fires...
From what I know, SB's picked the only two people who were most likely to argue and fight their corner of any wrong doing...I think we know this legislation better than them.
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Please beaware that the customs requirements are slightly different before you 'get stuck in'.
Flights outside the EU are different to flights inside the EU for Customs purposes.
The Channel Islands are outside the EU, and are specifically mentioned on the GAR form.
I understand that the Isle of Mann is also outside the EU, but have some sort of special status, so I'm not sure how they are treated for Customs purposes.
See my posting on this thread.
dp
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I don't mess with Customs, but Special Branch are a different matter, especially since this is specifically to do with their (mis)reading of the Terrorism Act 2000.
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There seems to be alot of unnecessary confusion about the effect of the Terrorism Act 2000. Schedule 7 applies to flights to and from the common travel area and from or to Great Britain. The requirement is fly from a designated airport or give twelve hours notice to the police. There is no requirement or power for the police to authorise the flight unless it is for hire or reward.
The common travel area is Northern Ireland, the Republic, Isle of Man and Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are the last possessions held by the Crown which once formed part of the Dutchy of Normandy. The Queen's position as the islands' head of state is often considered to be that of the Duke of Normandy and not be virtue of being Queen of England.
I don't understand how this nonsense has remained in force, since a flight to say the Channel Islands via a stop over at Le Touquet, for example, is not subject to the legislation.
The common travel area is Northern Ireland, the Republic, Isle of Man and Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are the last possessions held by the Crown which once formed part of the Dutchy of Normandy. The Queen's position as the islands' head of state is often considered to be that of the Duke of Normandy and not be virtue of being Queen of England.
I don't understand how this nonsense has remained in force, since a flight to say the Channel Islands via a stop over at Le Touquet, for example, is not subject to the legislation.
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I don't understand how this nonsense has remained in force, since a flight to say the Channel Islands via a stop over at Le Touquet, for example, is not subject to the legislation.
Being based in the ROI, I'm not as familiar with this side of things.
dp
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If you go to Ireland/IOM/CI you have to notify SB but if you go there via a landing in France you don't have to notify anybody because the UK has no exit Customs or Immigration.
This is quite unusual. Many countries, and probably most/all "3rd world" ones, have exit Customs, which is a real hassle because it can seriously restrict the departure airport. Switzerland for example has a number of such airfields but some are "Exit Customs on request" and you just fax a 6hrs' (?) notice, nobody ever turns up, and you fly.
So, if you have forgotten to fax SB, or PC Plod refuses to let you go (does anybody have first hand knowledge of such a case, and the full details??) then just go via France. You waste a bit of time but not 12 hours.
All this stuff is stupid. The IRA worked out the route about 40 years ago, I am certain.
This is quite unusual. Many countries, and probably most/all "3rd world" ones, have exit Customs, which is a real hassle because it can seriously restrict the departure airport. Switzerland for example has a number of such airfields but some are "Exit Customs on request" and you just fax a 6hrs' (?) notice, nobody ever turns up, and you fly.
So, if you have forgotten to fax SB, or PC Plod refuses to let you go (does anybody have first hand knowledge of such a case, and the full details??) then just go via France. You waste a bit of time but not 12 hours.
All this stuff is stupid. The IRA worked out the route about 40 years ago, I am certain.
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IO540 you are spot on, i agree the system is in the dark ages! How many times have they even had so much as a verified piece of intelligence gained through this system, let alone actually caught any one in the process of naughtyness? And how much have we all spent going to pointless airfields going through the hoops? I never quite understood why the Channel Islands were included? I haven't noticed an over supply of Irish Folk on the Islands! Why not Lundy as well?
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Evening all!
Dont be too hard on SB, remember most are failed policemen thats why they sit in an office all day with nothing to do except to try and think of something that may make them look important.
Dont be too hard on SB, remember most are failed policemen thats why they sit in an office all day with nothing to do except to try and think of something that may make them look important.
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Incidently, what are the Immigration notification periods? Immigration barely seems to be mentioned on the GAR form, (and aren't required for flights covered by SB.)
dp
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I'm not directly concerned as I do not fly in the UK for the moment, but if I may ask a question... if you do not tell SB you will be going from A to B, how will they know, which they'll have to in order to prosecute you? And if they do get to know you've been from A to B without you telling them, then why do you need to go and tell them in the first place if they're going to find out anyhow? 
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They get copies of flight plans sent to them, and/or they have access to airport arrivals/departures website feeds, and/or they get notified by ATC.
All the above is 2nd hand info
But they do find out, as I discovered once last year coming back from the CI. They waited for me for 2 hours (I was late departing, and headwind was stronger than planned for). We got a 1 hour interview, obviously just going through the motions of feeling super important.
All the above is 2nd hand info
But they do find out, as I discovered once last year coming back from the CI. They waited for me for 2 hours (I was late departing, and headwind was stronger than planned for). We got a 1 hour interview, obviously just going through the motions of feeling super important.
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As I said earlier, none of this applies if you fly via a designated airport, so if you have not got your notice in in time just land first at a designated airport and file a flight plan from there (assuming you can afford the landing fees, of course).
IO540: PC Plod cannot refuse to let you go, since the requirement is to notify them and not to obtain their permission. Any police officer who states the contrary is wrong. True the police can stop a particular flight, but this is not the same as saying that every flight needs their permission - it doesn't.
This only applies if you are re-entering the country other than through an airfield designated for customs and immigration, of which there are many more than those designated under the Terrorism Act. It should not be a problem to land and clear customs on route to your home airfield.
IO540: PC Plod cannot refuse to let you go, since the requirement is to notify them and not to obtain their permission. Any police officer who states the contrary is wrong. True the police can stop a particular flight, but this is not the same as saying that every flight needs their permission - it doesn't.
nor can you return via France without giving Customs & Immigration the required notice
It's undoubtedly a disgrace that a police officer could so misundertsand the legislation as to write that letter. But I'd suggest caution in the way that you approach any complaint. Stress that the GA community is an important ally in protection against terrorism, and that we'll try very hard to help the police in whatever way is appropriate but that it's important that the legislation is clearly understood by all.
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If I may just emphasise something already said; YOU DO NOT NEED SB PERMISSION. The Act requires a notification only and a GenDec to Customs is not part of the Terrorisn Act 2000. Justiciar said a flight for hire and reward can be stopped by SB, on what grounds please and where is the authority to which you refer?
I had an occasion a few years ago when a SB officer attempted to stop my departure to IOM from an unscheduled stop at a major airport in the UK. He was unsuccessful in 5 minuts flat after one telephone call to his HO. Only on one other opccasion has it been a problem. I was outbound to Jersey and was getting nowhere with SB so simply changed to Le Touquet and then to Jersey. SB did not like it one little bit but ce la vie. On no other occasion has there been any difficulty so it just is down an idiotic (very rare) PC Plod.
I had an occasion a few years ago when a SB officer attempted to stop my departure to IOM from an unscheduled stop at a major airport in the UK. He was unsuccessful in 5 minuts flat after one telephone call to his HO. Only on one other opccasion has it been a problem. I was outbound to Jersey and was getting nowhere with SB so simply changed to Le Touquet and then to Jersey. SB did not like it one little bit but ce la vie. On no other occasion has there been any difficulty so it just is down an idiotic (very rare) PC Plod.
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I had a problem with SB trying to fly from Sandown to CI once. I had filed from home but had to stop at Sandownd for an unexpected fuel stop. Re filed the flight plan and SB form. A PC from the SB unit down there phoned me and told me I could not do the flight as I had not given 12hrs notice. i pointed out that I had filed from home to CI and this was an unplanned stop. He was adamant that I could not go. Got the right hump when I told him to forget it and that I would go via Cherbourg.
I don't have any problems with coming and going from our place at Spanhoe and that is not listed as a designated port. Myabe Northants police are more enlightened!
I don't have any problems with coming and going from our place at Spanhoe and that is not listed as a designated port. Myabe Northants police are more enlightened!
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Justiciar said a flight for hire and reward can be stopped by SB, on what grounds please and where is the authority to which you refer?
Terrorism Act 2000, Sch 7, Paragraph 12 (2)
(2) Where a ship or aircraft is employed to carry passengers for reward on a journey to which this paragraph applies the owners or agents of the ship or aircraft shall not arrange for it to call at a port in Great Britain or Northern Ireland for the purpose of disembarking or embarking passengers unless-
(a) the port is a designated port, or
(b) an examining officer approves the arrangement.
(a) the port is a designated port, or
(b) an examining officer approves the arrangement.
dp
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Don't worry Bookworm. I'm not going after them with napalm, but I am letting my concerns known and asking them to justify their comments all in the spirit of police co-operation. It has been strangely quiet though, despite them promising faithfully that they would contact us today.
It seems everyone at the airfield recieved these letters, so it's not just me asking questions.
It seems everyone at the airfield recieved these letters, so it's not just me asking questions.