Special Branch and their interpretation of the Anti-Terrorism laws.
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if you do not tell SB you will be going from A to B, how will they know,
I my case, the airport informed them of my foreign arrival, and asked them if they wanted to come see me. Since they didn't have a GAR form, they decided to come see me.
I explained that I had faxed them. They said that that was insufficient, and that I had actually to ring them up and get a reference number before traveling. To back up their point of view, they produced their guidance notes, which said that I actually required their permission.
Not having read the legislation at the time, I had little choice be to accept their version of the legislation and appologise, and promise to ring for the reference number in future.
EVERY pilot making a flight which SB notification is required should keep a copy of their GAR and fax transmittion report with them on the flight. They should also read the relevant part of the legislation....linked in my post above. It's not very long, and not very complicated. Print out the relevant part of Schedule 7, and bring it with you in the aircraft. Had I done that, I would have been able to properly defend myself.
Obviously any flights I make, for which SB notification is required, I now bring along a copy of my fax, the confirmation page, and the relevant part of the leglisation. They can throw their guidance notes in the bin, if I have the Act itself.
This shouldn't be necessary, but the reality is the each force deals with this differently. For some it's a piece of paper work. For some, "it's a file in GAR file". For some it's a "What's this all about?". But for some it's the most important job ever....even if they dont' understand the legislation. Make sure you are ready, and know that leglisation. You'll read it all the relevant bit in 5 minutes.
dp
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Thanks for that Ifonly.
We started to keep copies of all correspondance with SB in the last few months. faxes are sent via the computer with logs showing it, we also ask that SB themselves send us confirmation that they have recieved the fax.
Basically we don't trust them anymore as it seems they are out to "get us". I'm mortified by this as we've always tried our hardest to keep them informed of what's going on, anything that we've seen etc.etc. This has even included nights where we have invited SB along to talk to all our members to make sure we all know what to do.
Then all of a sudden there is a change of officers and it all goes t*ts up. They've trashed the good relationship we had for no reason. How this is helping to keep our country safe I will never know.
We started to keep copies of all correspondance with SB in the last few months. faxes are sent via the computer with logs showing it, we also ask that SB themselves send us confirmation that they have recieved the fax.
Basically we don't trust them anymore as it seems they are out to "get us". I'm mortified by this as we've always tried our hardest to keep them informed of what's going on, anything that we've seen etc.etc. This has even included nights where we have invited SB along to talk to all our members to make sure we all know what to do.
Then all of a sudden there is a change of officers and it all goes t*ts up. They've trashed the good relationship we had for no reason. How this is helping to keep our country safe I will never know.
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Beat me to it dublinpilot.
Some very sound advice there. You could actually do worse than buy an official copy of the Act, with Schedule 7 para 12 marked. Never assume the police actually know the law just because they assert something as being the law
Some very sound advice there. You could actually do worse than buy an official copy of the Act, with Schedule 7 para 12 marked. Never assume the police actually know the law just because they assert something as being the law
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I was involved with the nonsense from SB at Newcastle a few years ago. I had a vigorous telephone conversation with an officer regarding their interpretation of the act - requiring that I gave them 12 hours notice of my trips from Newcastle to the IOM. No amount of my telling him that as Newcastle was a designated port under the act, I could turn up, inform SB and depart, did any good at all. It ended in me politely telling him that I considered his interpretation was wrong and ending the call.
Later that day, I had a call from a senior officer, telling me that I was correct. I have had no further problems.
My advice is to the flyers at Cumbernauld is most definitely to challenge SB. As has been said by others, there is no requirement for notification of any private flight to SB - other than one to Northern Ireland, Eire and the Islands (IOM & CIs).
It's also about time that someone tested the wording that only requires the 12hrs notice to be given to 'a police constable'. My reading of that is that if you inform the airfield's local plod - you have complied. No mention of SB in
the act! Any body tried this yet?
Later that day, I had a call from a senior officer, telling me that I was correct. I have had no further problems.
My advice is to the flyers at Cumbernauld is most definitely to challenge SB. As has been said by others, there is no requirement for notification of any private flight to SB - other than one to Northern Ireland, Eire and the Islands (IOM & CIs).
It's also about time that someone tested the wording that only requires the 12hrs notice to be given to 'a police constable'. My reading of that is that if you inform the airfield's local plod - you have complied. No mention of SB in
the act! Any body tried this yet?
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Justiciar
none of this applies if you fly via a designated airport
I know you know this but it's worth mentioning that an airport can be "designated" for Customs and not be "designated" under the TA 2000.
Examples are Farnborough and Shoreham.
However, on the commonly distributed GAR form, there is a mistake. Farnborough is correctly identified as an exception but Shoreham isn't. However, Plod keep an keen eye on Shoreham-arriving flight plans and they don't give a damn about this mistake.
none of this applies if you fly via a designated airport
I know you know this but it's worth mentioning that an airport can be "designated" for Customs and not be "designated" under the TA 2000.
Examples are Farnborough and Shoreham.
However, on the commonly distributed GAR form, there is a mistake. Farnborough is correctly identified as an exception but Shoreham isn't. However, Plod keep an keen eye on Shoreham-arriving flight plans and they don't give a damn about this mistake.
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Perhaps if pilots read the document designed to convey such requirements to them then we would not have this situation.
Read the AIP!!!
5.3 The captain of an aircraft not employed to carry passengers for reward and coming to Great Britain from the Republic of
Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands or going from Great Britain to any other of those places shall not, without the approval of
an examining officer, permit the aircraft to call or leave an airport in Great Britain other than a designated airport.
.........
5.5 If a pilot or an aircraft operator wishes to make a flight to or from a non-designated airport without an intermediate landing at a
designated airport, he must seek prior permission from the Chief Officer of Police in whose area the non-designated airport is located.
In practice this is usually via the force Special Branch and should be done as far in advance as possible of the flight being made. (Most
Police forces require at least 24 hours notice either directly or via the airport operator).
..........
There is more dealing with forced landings due to weather, shortage of fuel etc which back-up the police position in some posts above.
While there is no requirements with regard to internal GB flights, for all others perhaps before pilots jump up and claim the Police are wrong, they should get their own facts straight.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC,
Sorry to disappoint you, but your information is old.
In the AIP, the Paragraph 5.1 in Gen1.2 says that the Terrorism ACT 2000 has come into effect.
The information in the following paragraphs, the ones that you quoted, refer to the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989. The wording you quote from the AIP, is virtually word for word, from Schedue 5, Paragraphs 8(2) and 8(4). These were replaced by the Terrorism Act 2000.
You can see the old act by clicking here.
I will admit that the AIP could make it clearer in line 5.1 that the subsequent lines are replaced by the Terrorism Act 2000.
dp
Sorry to disappoint you, but your information is old.
In the AIP, the Paragraph 5.1 in Gen1.2 says that the Terrorism ACT 2000 has come into effect.
5.1 The Terrorism Act 2000 came into operation on 19 February 2001, replacing the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1989.
You can see the old act by clicking here.
I will admit that the AIP could make it clearer in line 5.1 that the subsequent lines are replaced by the Terrorism Act 2000.
dp
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DFC:
You need to consider what an AIP is. Under ICAO Annex 15 it is a publication " ... containing aeronautical information of a lasting character essential to air navigation" (my emphasis).
Therefore, whilst the AIP will set out the legal position it is not the source of the law, which is the Act. In any case of conflict the Act would always prevail. Simply arguing that you have complied with the AIP will not get you off the hook if you have not complied with the legislation. The relevant legislation here (under which you would be prosecuted!) is the Terrorism Act 2000, as amended.
The AIP is indeed wrong, as it mis-states the current law as contained in the 2000 Act.
You need to consider what an AIP is. Under ICAO Annex 15 it is a publication " ... containing aeronautical information of a lasting character essential to air navigation" (my emphasis).
Therefore, whilst the AIP will set out the legal position it is not the source of the law, which is the Act. In any case of conflict the Act would always prevail. Simply arguing that you have complied with the AIP will not get you off the hook if you have not complied with the legislation. The relevant legislation here (under which you would be prosecuted!) is the Terrorism Act 2000, as amended.
The AIP is indeed wrong, as it mis-states the current law as contained in the 2000 Act.
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I heard a story of some people coming back from the CI to some airfield in the UK. They got a call from Solent that they were to divert to Southampton, which they did and were met by SB. SB Carted them off and interviewed them, it turns out that SB had "lost" the GAR. The matter was eventually cleared up and they were sent on their way. By this time the destination would have been shut, so they had to pay to keep the airfield open, plus the other costs just because SB bollocked up.
Why can't there be an online system which send the reports to the relevant police force and issued a confirmation number? Seems like an easy task an A level compuing student could knock up in half a day.......
Why can't there be an online system which send the reports to the relevant police force and issued a confirmation number? Seems like an easy task an A level compuing student could knock up in half a day.......
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Because that would be simple and straight forward. I've asked numerous times why we don't have such a system since it would benefit us and the police. Who knows, they could even send the details to immigration and customs, thereby taking as much potential error out as possible, but that would be too much like common sense.
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We don't need a technlogy answer for a problem that should not exist in the first place. The SB notification should just be binned. We can travel around Europe without a problem but we can't travel within our own Isles. There is sooo much wrong with that concept.
Notifying SB of lights does nothing to aid security. Terrorists have become far more sophisticated these days and recruit natives ready to die for the "cause". The IRA have laid down arms and put the job in the hands of the politicians. The last time I looked the CI and IOM were not exactly a hot bed of terrorism. The "threat" we face these days is illegal immigrant smuggling and agian I do not see any of that from our Isles!
The last time I looked the government and the police were here to protect and serve us the people or did we become a police state while I was in bed?
Notifying SB of lights does nothing to aid security. Terrorists have become far more sophisticated these days and recruit natives ready to die for the "cause". The IRA have laid down arms and put the job in the hands of the politicians. The last time I looked the CI and IOM were not exactly a hot bed of terrorism. The "threat" we face these days is illegal immigrant smuggling and agian I do not see any of that from our Isles!
The last time I looked the government and the police were here to protect and serve us the people or did we become a police state while I was in bed?
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Dublin Pilot and Justiciar,
The quote is from the current amendment of the AIP and thus as far as the CAA are concerned it is up to date. Please write to the CAA and let them know your opinion that they are wrong!
Do you think that a pilot from France is going to purchase the relevant Acts of every country they will fly to or from. No they will not unless they have money to waste. They will simply look up the AIP.
If that French pilot decides they want to fly from Farmer Tom's strip to Alderney and then back to their home base they will simply do what the AIP says and provided they do that they will not have a problem.
Failure to comply with requirements notified in the AIP can get you in trouble with the CAA as well as the police!
One does not need permission to leave from a designated airport. The reason why "permission" comes into non-designated airfields is that the police can refuse your request. Reasons for refusal can be simply that they want to inspect the flight but do not have the manpower to go out to some farm strip in the middle of nowhere or that they can not be there at the time requested.
Regards,
DFC
The quote is from the current amendment of the AIP and thus as far as the CAA are concerned it is up to date. Please write to the CAA and let them know your opinion that they are wrong!
Do you think that a pilot from France is going to purchase the relevant Acts of every country they will fly to or from. No they will not unless they have money to waste. They will simply look up the AIP.
If that French pilot decides they want to fly from Farmer Tom's strip to Alderney and then back to their home base they will simply do what the AIP says and provided they do that they will not have a problem.
Failure to comply with requirements notified in the AIP can get you in trouble with the CAA as well as the police!
One does not need permission to leave from a designated airport. The reason why "permission" comes into non-designated airfields is that the police can refuse your request. Reasons for refusal can be simply that they want to inspect the flight but do not have the manpower to go out to some farm strip in the middle of nowhere or that they can not be there at the time requested.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC
You are thankfully WRONG about where the primary legislation is sitting, but you have a fair point about pilots relying on the AIP.
The CAA has to put this right. Somebody ought to write to them, giving the proper references. They aren't stupid; they will fix it.
Otherwise, the police will not miss the chance to prevent people flying to the CI/IOM/Ireland by pretending they don't have the manpower.
This kind of situation already exists in many places abroad, with the "PPR" business. Take Corfu (LGKR) for example: the Notam says 24hrs PPR is required, but the airport officials say they need 5 days. You also don't need a permission (24hrs' notice is enough) but they like to treat it as such, faxing you back with a permission letter.
Personally, I have fixed this "problem" by setting up a laptop with Winfax and faxing the flight details of every foreign flight (departure and arrival) to all 3 lots of people, the day before, with a statement "flight may be cancelled due to weather". They are probably sick of it most of the time, but it's safe.
You are thankfully WRONG about where the primary legislation is sitting, but you have a fair point about pilots relying on the AIP.
The CAA has to put this right. Somebody ought to write to them, giving the proper references. They aren't stupid; they will fix it.
Otherwise, the police will not miss the chance to prevent people flying to the CI/IOM/Ireland by pretending they don't have the manpower.
This kind of situation already exists in many places abroad, with the "PPR" business. Take Corfu (LGKR) for example: the Notam says 24hrs PPR is required, but the airport officials say they need 5 days. You also don't need a permission (24hrs' notice is enough) but they like to treat it as such, faxing you back with a permission letter.
Personally, I have fixed this "problem" by setting up a laptop with Winfax and faxing the flight details of every foreign flight (departure and arrival) to all 3 lots of people, the day before, with a statement "flight may be cancelled due to weather". They are probably sick of it most of the time, but it's safe.
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The latest is that the officer concerned "isn't in today", but I had a good chat with her boss' boss. Who's not a happy chappy about this. He's agreed it's all nonsense, but is continuing to say that we should give notification if we fly to the Scottish Isles. He's coming in to see us all this afternoon so I've told him to don his lead pants.
What a waste of time.....
What a waste of time.....
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One does not need permission to leave from a designated airport. The reason why "permission" comes into non-designated airfields is that the police can refuse your request
As IO540 said, you need to be clear what the origins of the law are in this country. The Law is made by Parliament, either through Act such as the Terrorism Act or through regulations (ANO for example) most approved by a parliamentary process. Law is not made by the AIP, which merely purports to tell people what the law is, sometimes incorrectly.
Yes, I agree that a foreign pilot will tend to look at the AIP. This does not make the AIP right, nor will it legally be a defence should anyone be charged with failing to comply with the provisions of the Act. Don't think for one moment that quoting the AIP to SB will help you. The police enforce the Act not the AIP (which is prepared by the CAA for the purposes of information to airmen and with whom the police have no connection).
What all pilots need to be clear about is what the law is, which is why I suggested a copy of the Act to waive under their noses. A copy of the Act printed on the authority of parliament is difficult to argue with.
continuing to say that we should give notification if we fly to the Scottish Isles. He's coming in to see us all this afternoon so I've told him to don his lead pants.
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A quick look at everyone's log book is in order I think. We are all criminals and terrorists obviously - what a plonker of a plod !! Get them back on speed camera duty, stat !
Do I have to give the whisky back then ?
Do I have to give the whisky back then ?
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nor will it legally be a defence should anyone be charged with failing to comply with the provisions of the Act.
I recall someone here (who I know is a barrister, but not Tudor Owen) posting on this general subject. Ignorance is no defence but if the Govt (the CAA) publishes something which is wrong, it's a reasonable defence because the public has a reasonable entitlement to a correction.
The Plod won't give a damn of course and if you make a fuss they will arrest you and lock you up, but that is as far as it can possibly go. I can't believe anybody would get convicted, because you have a right to a solicitor and he will turn up the relevant page and show it to them.
However, better to bring this into the open before somebody does get locked up.
I recall someone here (who I know is a barrister, but not Tudor Owen) posting on this general subject. Ignorance is no defence but if the Govt (the CAA) publishes something which is wrong, it's a reasonable defence because the public has a reasonable entitlement to a correction.
The Plod won't give a damn of course and if you make a fuss they will arrest you and lock you up, but that is as far as it can possibly go. I can't believe anybody would get convicted, because you have a right to a solicitor and he will turn up the relevant page and show it to them.
However, better to bring this into the open before somebody does get locked up.
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I am planning on flying Cumbernauld to Islay on Friday... do we think I legally HAVE to give 12 hours notice for that flight? It's not IOM of Jersey afterall!
The aforementioned officer had said that a flight to Oban would need permission. Last time I landed there it appeared to be attached to the rest of Scotland?!
Answers on a postcard for my jaunt on Friday!
The aforementioned officer had said that a flight to Oban would need permission. Last time I landed there it appeared to be attached to the rest of Scotland?!
Answers on a postcard for my jaunt on Friday!
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Just in case this is useful here is a link to the act.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2000/20000011.htm
Schedule 7 seems to be the key part.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2000/20000011.htm
Schedule 7 seems to be the key part.