Vans RV-9A
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Vans RV-9A
I'm looking to start building a RV-9A kitplane, but would like to know the following:
1) As they are using Lycoming O-235 / O-320 engines, can you service the engine yourself as with the Rotax 912S, or does it have to be serviced by a licensed engineer, or should I rather install the Wilksh diesel?
2) Does any one know the running costs and PFA registration costs of RVs. Insurance, PFA fees etc.
3) How much more will it cost to run than a Europa XS?
Any information will be helpfull!
1) As they are using Lycoming O-235 / O-320 engines, can you service the engine yourself as with the Rotax 912S, or does it have to be serviced by a licensed engineer, or should I rather install the Wilksh diesel?
2) Does any one know the running costs and PFA registration costs of RVs. Insurance, PFA fees etc.
3) How much more will it cost to run than a Europa XS?
Any information will be helpfull!
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I suggest you go to the very active UK "RV Squadron":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rvsqn/messages/
where you will find a wealth of helpful experience and advice about building and operating RV aircraft.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rvsqn/messages/
where you will find a wealth of helpful experience and advice about building and operating RV aircraft.
Also suggest you have a look at the PFA website.
Lots of advice therein regarding building, maintenance etc, and the various charges.
M9
Lots of advice therein regarding building, maintenance etc, and the various charges.
M9
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Excellent choice of aeroplane. Good quality kits with no nasty resins, and great 'planes to fly, though my preference is for the sportier models.
I have an RV-4 and am building a -8, so may be able to help a bit.
Engine servicing is as much as your inspector allows and is authorised to sign for. You can do the regular maintenance and sign it off yourself. Changing a pot, or the like will require a signature from an inspector approved for such.
There is an RV-9 being built near me with the Wilksch engine. The idea is appealling, but the reality of putting a new engine design in an aircraft means lots of work and maybe doubling the build time, Putting a Lycoming in is simple and straightforward in comparison. You can get mods like injection, electronic ignition and FADEC approved by a reasonably simple procedure that would be a nightmare for a CofA aeroplane.
PFA charges about £50 for registering the project and about £480 for first permit issue. Permit renewal is £160 plus any inspector's fees. Insurance about £1200-1400 for full, or about £500 for liability only. Fuel, hangarage/parking will vary depending on what/where/how.
A Europa will probably use about 15 l/hr against about 22-25 for an RV-9, but (given the record of Europas), I expect insurance would be less. I quite like Europas, but given the choice, I'd opt for the RV.
Have a fly of both if you can. It'll probably make your mind up for you.
Feel free to PM if I can help any more.
I have an RV-4 and am building a -8, so may be able to help a bit.
Engine servicing is as much as your inspector allows and is authorised to sign for. You can do the regular maintenance and sign it off yourself. Changing a pot, or the like will require a signature from an inspector approved for such.
There is an RV-9 being built near me with the Wilksch engine. The idea is appealling, but the reality of putting a new engine design in an aircraft means lots of work and maybe doubling the build time, Putting a Lycoming in is simple and straightforward in comparison. You can get mods like injection, electronic ignition and FADEC approved by a reasonably simple procedure that would be a nightmare for a CofA aeroplane.
PFA charges about £50 for registering the project and about £480 for first permit issue. Permit renewal is £160 plus any inspector's fees. Insurance about £1200-1400 for full, or about £500 for liability only. Fuel, hangarage/parking will vary depending on what/where/how.
A Europa will probably use about 15 l/hr against about 22-25 for an RV-9, but (given the record of Europas), I expect insurance would be less. I quite like Europas, but given the choice, I'd opt for the RV.
Have a fly of both if you can. It'll probably make your mind up for you.
Feel free to PM if I can help any more.
Should read, not as much nasty resins - there is glass work involved on cowlings, wheel spats, gear leg fairings, wing and tail tips etc, but take proper protection and you'll be OK.
try RivetBangers, a sort of Pprune for RV builders
try RivetBangers, a sort of Pprune for RV builders
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These days there is minimal glass work on the non-structural (as it should be)glass bits of an RV - you can buy most bits ready made.
At least you can leave the RV out in the midday sun without fear of it going soft - and you can even paint them any colour you lie unlike our tuppaware brethren...
At least you can leave the RV out in the midday sun without fear of it going soft - and you can even paint them any colour you lie unlike our tuppaware brethren...
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within the near future, I might consider buying a kit, and getting some help to build it ( also location, as I don't have the space )
I looked at the RV9a on the US site, looks a great machine, is there a UK importer ? and whats a realistic all up price, as the US price list is a tad ambiguious !
I do not wish to highjack this thread, however, any other thoughts on building a kit plane ? whats the easiest ? whats the best ?
( the tl sting also the sports cruiser, look great also ? )
tv
I looked at the RV9a on the US site, looks a great machine, is there a UK importer ? and whats a realistic all up price, as the US price list is a tad ambiguious !
I do not wish to highjack this thread, however, any other thoughts on building a kit plane ? whats the easiest ? whats the best ?
( the tl sting also the sports cruiser, look great also ? )
tv
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Your best bet would be to follow the link above to the ever helpful UK RV builders site. There are a load of RV-9 builders there who will help you with the true costings etc.
There isn't a UK importer, everything is done through the factory and it isn't really a problem. Harry Hopkins (Avery tools and RV-4 builder/pilot) provides (provided!) cover at the Rallys of old.
As for what you build. Many RV builders have gone and built another (or more) - you don't do that if the product isn't any good. There's now close to 5000 RVs flying around the world and 134 flying in the UK. You can't get a better machine for the UK - the combination of take-off/climb/cruise and landing performance (both grass and hard) is hard to beat.
Also have a look at:
http://www.rvuk.co.uk/index.htm
There isn't a UK importer, everything is done through the factory and it isn't really a problem. Harry Hopkins (Avery tools and RV-4 builder/pilot) provides (provided!) cover at the Rallys of old.
As for what you build. Many RV builders have gone and built another (or more) - you don't do that if the product isn't any good. There's now close to 5000 RVs flying around the world and 134 flying in the UK. You can't get a better machine for the UK - the combination of take-off/climb/cruise and landing performance (both grass and hard) is hard to beat.
Also have a look at:
http://www.rvuk.co.uk/index.htm
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To see the build process in detail, visit Richard Horan's excellent 'Dignity' site.
(OK, his is an RV-7 not an RV-9, and his third wheel is at the correct end
, but other than that it seems to give a very good idea of what's involved.)
Tim R's "GAPilot" site is equally good.
(OK, his is an RV-7 not an RV-9, and his third wheel is at the correct end
, but other than that it seems to give a very good idea of what's involved.)Tim R's "GAPilot" site is equally good.
Last edited by DaveW; 26th Oct 2006 at 12:34. Reason: Added second site link
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TV
The Van's price list is pretty good. You've probably seen that a complete airframe kit runs from about $18000 for a standard to about $26000 for a quickbuild - good value at the current exchange rate.
Air freight adds about £500 for each sub-kit, so another £1500-£2000 (quick builds are bulky and usually shipped) and VAT on top of course. So about £14-20K so far.
Tools will likely be £1,000-2,000.
After that it's engine, prop, exhaust, instruments/radios, upholstery, paint etc.. This is where the big differences usually occur. 2nd hand engine and basic instruments plus DIY paint might be possible for another £10k. Best of everything may turn that to another £60k. Most people end up somewhere in the middle.
The Van's price list is pretty good. You've probably seen that a complete airframe kit runs from about $18000 for a standard to about $26000 for a quickbuild - good value at the current exchange rate.
Air freight adds about £500 for each sub-kit, so another £1500-£2000 (quick builds are bulky and usually shipped) and VAT on top of course. So about £14-20K so far.
Tools will likely be £1,000-2,000.
After that it's engine, prop, exhaust, instruments/radios, upholstery, paint etc.. This is where the big differences usually occur. 2nd hand engine and basic instruments plus DIY paint might be possible for another £10k. Best of everything may turn that to another £60k. Most people end up somewhere in the middle.
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thank you for your helpful info, I had always thought I'd buy a "rotax" engined machine, ease of maintenance and cost being paramount, I will have to rethink my stratagy,
TV
TV
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Mark, you're not wrong about the development time on Steve Arnold's diesel RV-9A, but as you know about to fly so it wil be worth it in the end.
Vans are developing a 2-seat aircraft with a Rotax for the US LSA category, namely the RV-12. I imagine in the fullness of time we will see it over here on a UK PFA permit.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm
Mark 1's RV-4 is Red and looks a total nutter. I imagine it's very easy to have a "Mr Toad" moment with. Poooop poop!
Vans are developing a 2-seat aircraft with a Rotax for the US LSA category, namely the RV-12. I imagine in the fullness of time we will see it over here on a UK PFA permit.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm
Mark 1's RV-4 is Red and looks a total nutter. I imagine it's very easy to have a "Mr Toad" moment with. Poooop poop!
Last edited by BlueRobin; 27th Oct 2006 at 22:17. Reason: additional detail
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Subject to the weather, a smattering of RVs may join in the fun of the VAC fly-in at Sywell tomorrow, 28 Oct - if the weather is naff they that might go Sunday.
(Bits of many early RVs nearly qualify for vintage status - the kits are a lot quicker to build these days!)
(Bits of many early RVs nearly qualify for vintage status - the kits are a lot quicker to build these days!)
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RV-9A's and Engines
The -9A is the nicest flying model of all the VANS range, and I've flown or instructed in them all - right up to the -10. With 15% more wing area, and longer span, plus bigger flaps, I've believe the -9A to be the best marque for the average PPL. Sure, it's non-aerobatic, but if you want to yank & bank - then go for the -7A.
I've found the -9A to have probably the best glide of all the RV's, and it gives a smoother ride in rough air too - important out here.
Engine choice is controversial, because VANS himself recommends against anything higher than 160HP. His concern is exceeding design limits in rough air,especially at higher altitudes. You can read his article on www.vansaircraft.com An opposing view is available on the Superior site, www.xp-360.com, which isn't surprising as they have only had a 180HP engine until recently. After flying 43 years in hot climates, I'm very aware of keeping the speeds down in rough air - so I am careful to pull off power as needed. But, the higher HP is really great to get up to 8-10,000 quickly so that it's cruising in smoother air.
I have flown the -9A with a 160HP Lycoming and fp Sensenich propellor, the -9A with 180HP and a fp Sensenich, and a -9A with a 170HP Jabiru with fp Sensenich 'wood' prop. The 180 with the 86 ins metal Sensenich is the best - you get the performance that you pay for !
There are several -9A's flying in the USA with 0-235 Lycomings,(115HP),and their owners swear by them, but it's a 30 knot lower speed you're looking at, and slower climb. When you look at the fuel consumption, the 0-320 is probably 3-6 LPH heavier on fuel, but has advantages. Remember that Jon Johansen flew his RV-4 twice round-the-world with only 150HP, and he used 24LPH for 140KTAS - not bad at all.
Of course, if LSA comes into your country with a 720-750 kg AUW limit, then the -9A with a 115HP Lycoming will be legal, as VANS has it listed as 727kg AUW with that engine- 795kg with the 0-320 Lycoming. So, you'd be able to get out of GA, and into LSA.....if that's going to be an advantage there.
There are lots of other engines for RV's, but my observations are that you are wise to stick to Lycoming or Superior, because the knowledge base of the RV 'airforce' is based on them. Someone, somewhere on the planet, will have an answer to your question....see www.vansairforce.com and you'll be amazed at the collective experience there alone.
Good luck with your building,
The -9A is the nicest flying model of all the VANS range, and I've flown or instructed in them all - right up to the -10. With 15% more wing area, and longer span, plus bigger flaps, I've believe the -9A to be the best marque for the average PPL. Sure, it's non-aerobatic, but if you want to yank & bank - then go for the -7A.
I've found the -9A to have probably the best glide of all the RV's, and it gives a smoother ride in rough air too - important out here.
Engine choice is controversial, because VANS himself recommends against anything higher than 160HP. His concern is exceeding design limits in rough air,especially at higher altitudes. You can read his article on www.vansaircraft.com An opposing view is available on the Superior site, www.xp-360.com, which isn't surprising as they have only had a 180HP engine until recently. After flying 43 years in hot climates, I'm very aware of keeping the speeds down in rough air - so I am careful to pull off power as needed. But, the higher HP is really great to get up to 8-10,000 quickly so that it's cruising in smoother air.
I have flown the -9A with a 160HP Lycoming and fp Sensenich propellor, the -9A with 180HP and a fp Sensenich, and a -9A with a 170HP Jabiru with fp Sensenich 'wood' prop. The 180 with the 86 ins metal Sensenich is the best - you get the performance that you pay for !
There are several -9A's flying in the USA with 0-235 Lycomings,(115HP),and their owners swear by them, but it's a 30 knot lower speed you're looking at, and slower climb. When you look at the fuel consumption, the 0-320 is probably 3-6 LPH heavier on fuel, but has advantages. Remember that Jon Johansen flew his RV-4 twice round-the-world with only 150HP, and he used 24LPH for 140KTAS - not bad at all.
Of course, if LSA comes into your country with a 720-750 kg AUW limit, then the -9A with a 115HP Lycoming will be legal, as VANS has it listed as 727kg AUW with that engine- 795kg with the 0-320 Lycoming. So, you'd be able to get out of GA, and into LSA.....if that's going to be an advantage there.
There are lots of other engines for RV's, but my observations are that you are wise to stick to Lycoming or Superior, because the knowledge base of the RV 'airforce' is based on them. Someone, somewhere on the planet, will have an answer to your question....see www.vansairforce.com and you'll be amazed at the collective experience there alone.
Good luck with your building,
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If you plan to build an RV-9A in the UK budget on spending £40k. This will get you a slow build kit, a new O-320 lycoming and a minimal/avionics instrument fit. It will also cover tools, shipping charges and the dreaded VAT 
(who says aviation isn't taxed).
If you are prepared to do your own paintwork you might shave £2k off the above figure.
How do I know these figures are correct ?. I built one, it's been flying 12 months now and I still have an ear
to ear grin every time I get in it.
The Manchester low level route takes on a whole new aspect at 150kts
Hen Ddraig
Time to spare, go by air.
(who says aviation isn't taxed).If you are prepared to do your own paintwork you might shave £2k off the above figure.
How do I know these figures are correct ?. I built one, it's been flying 12 months now and I still have an ear
to ear grin every time I get in it.The Manchester low level route takes on a whole new aspect at 150kts
Hen Ddraig
Time to spare, go by air.
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Thanks for the info HD, as I mentioned earlier, I don't have the facility to build one, so, I would be looking for a premisis and some help to build which ever kit I decide upon !
I would imagine the quick build kit would considerably cut the build costs here, the one thing that does worry me, a bit, is the lycoming engine,
they seem to be a fortune not only to buy, but keep maintained, in comparison to a rotax ????
TV
I would imagine the quick build kit would considerably cut the build costs here, the one thing that does worry me, a bit, is the lycoming engine,
they seem to be a fortune not only to buy, but keep maintained, in comparison to a rotax ????
TV
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My experience of going from an 180hp Lyc to a Rotax has been very positive. The engine is much more modern, no mags to go wrong and £18 of oil a year are just two of the advantages. The bits seem very inexpensive compared to Lyc and props are modern and a fraction of the cost, with a VP coming in at £2000 ish.
The Vans range is very good, but it is an American design with 98% flying in the US. Vans have experienced a sharp downturn following the LSA launch which is dominated by European designs. The new Rotax powered version is an attempt to stop the rot, but it will be interesting to see if the traditional Vans can match the best Europe has to offer.
The fuel burn difference will cause a huge difference in costs as the new green tax comes in and Avgas becomes more expensive and eventually disappears completely. I cost justified my VLA over 10 years, and firmly believe the VLA category is the one with the future in Europe.
Rod1
The Vans range is very good, but it is an American design with 98% flying in the US. Vans have experienced a sharp downturn following the LSA launch which is dominated by European designs. The new Rotax powered version is an attempt to stop the rot, but it will be interesting to see if the traditional Vans can match the best Europe has to offer.
The fuel burn difference will cause a huge difference in costs as the new green tax comes in and Avgas becomes more expensive and eventually disappears completely. I cost justified my VLA over 10 years, and firmly believe the VLA category is the one with the future in Europe.
Rod1