Avoiding action

[Diddley Dee]

3FF

First of hats off to you for preventing a collision, however I personally think that no matter how busy the controller was, it should have been brought to his attention that you came as close to the other ac as you did, either on the RT at the time or by a phone call to the unit afterwards.

Diddley Dee

[soay]

Originally Posted by Whirlybird

Let's face it, see and avoid is a nice idea and sometimes works, but most of the time it's incredibly hard to see other aircraft.

So why is there so much resistance to making transponder use compulsory - at least in all aircraft with an engine and that wouldn't fall apart if you hit them? That would encourage those who could afford it to fit TCAS, which would also reduce the risk to those who couldn't, by reducing the number of aircraft in the sky relying on eyeballs alone.

Making use compulsory would put a stop to those who have transponders but don't use mode C, so they can't get caught level busting - which is a very dubious justification, given the possible consequences.

[shortstripper]

So why is there so much resistance to making transponder use compulsory - at least in all aircraft with an engine and that wouldn't fall apart if you hit them? That would encourage those who could afford it to fit TCAS, which would also reduce the risk to those who couldn't, by reducing the number of aircraft in the sky relying on eyeballs alone.

What a stupid reply! .... So what about those who couldn't afford it? no, hang on, you just said that making transponders compulsory would

encourage those who could afford it to fit TCAS, which would also reduce the risk to those who couldn't

... of course it would, they wouldn't be flying would they???

Of course this subject hasn't been done to death recently has it? ... Let's just stick to "what's the best avoiding action"? shall we? ... please!

SS

[soay]

Originally Posted by shortstripper

Let's just stick to "what's the best avoiding action"? shall we? ... please!

The consensus that seems to be forming from the posts in this thread is that there is no "best avoiding action". You're just lucky if you get it right, and most traffic around you can't be seen anyway. Shame there's no technical solution to help with this!

[robin]

But look on the bright side. There have been very few mid-air collisions so the odds are still in your favour

[Whirlybird]

So why is there so much resistance to making transponder use compulsory

Jeeeeeezzzzzz. I make a comment that will hopefully stop people criticising those who inadvertantly get too close to other aircraft, based on flying and people as I know them. And someone has to take it and make a massive jump to a deduction which could well precipitate the end of GA flying. And....why? It's not like we're having mid-air collisions in our skies every week, is it?

[scooter boy]

small planes - big sky - brown trousers

This is why I love TCAS.

It might've helped - it might not.
Sure focuses the attention when you hear "traffic..traffic..traffic.."

And as for "not being able to afford a transponder" - I have never heard so much nonsense in my life. How much money do you spend on flying per annum? Far more than the cost of fitting a small transponder I'll bet.

SB

[shortstripper]

And as for "not being able to afford a transponder" - I have never heard so much nonsense in my life. How much money do you spend on flying per annum? Far more than the cost of fitting a small transponder I'll bet.

No actually Scooter Boy I don't, besides which where do you suggest I fit one in my small single seat cockpit? My hand held icom radio even had to be fitted down between my legs in front of the stick! There are rarely simple solutions to such complex problems, so think before making such sweeping statements. This subject has been debated to death but people still bring it up again and again ... getting boring now!

SS

[scooter boy]

Inexpensive small transponder

SS, I used to have a little terra transponder in my little taildragger.
Must have weighed less than 2lb and drawn very little current - front plate was about 8 x 4 cm and it worked a treat.
I'll bet there'll be plenty of cut price pre-loved mode C transponders coming onto the market over the next year or so.

I don't agree that everybody should be forced to have one however I do not think that finance or space are such insurmountable obstacles as you suggest,

SB

[shortstripper]

Well I'm open for persuasion, but 8x4cm front face ... and how deep?

Here's my cockpit ...



and this is what's behind the panel ...




I still don't see where I can fit one? Also what power consumption? and where is the best aerial placement to avoid fried b@lls? So out of interest, what was your little taildragger and where was your transponder and aerial fitted?
As for cost? my T31m cost me around £2500 to make, and I figure an annual flying budget of around under £2k to inc maint and insurance for up to 100 hours.

All that aside, I've been flying since 1986 and I'm still here having rarely flown transponder equipped aircraft.

SS

PS. Sorry to be party to dragging this thread back to yet another Transponder/TCAS debate ... grrrrrrrrrrr

[scooter boy]

SS, your elegantly demonstrated point is well taken re:space.
However - I can see a nice gap right in the middle of your panel just asking for a nice bit of hi-tech electronics.
Also I think you would have enough depth (25cm or so - I may be wrong).
The aerial is about 3 in and was mounted underneath. Your balls would be safe(ish).
I am sure Terra (Trimble) have a website - it really was a nice piece of minaturisation.

I had a europa monowheel - (much more space for kit like this I know) and put 500+hrs on it (in UK, Europe, USA and Canada) great little plane.

I'll be over with my saw and some wire drecly,

SB

[3FallinFlyer]

I've given this (the original subject) some thought and came up with this FWIW:

I automatically elected to dive on both occasions as a climb or descent i.e. elevator input gives a direct instant vector change away from the path of the other a/c, whereas rudder and aileron input has a much significant lag before a significant vector change occurs. Also a change in pitch takes you instantly off of a collision course (if the other a/c maintains alt & heading), whereas a turn to avoid a collision may just prolong your life slightly if you turn away from the other a/c or shorten your life if you turn towards it. Therefore, I conclude that the best course of action in most cases would be a diving turn away from the traffic if in a low powered a/c and possibly a climbing turn away if in a powerful aerobatic type. But then of couse every situation is different

Makes me wonder why avoiding action is taught as a 60 deg bank angle level RH turn with simultaneous added power during the PPL (well thats what I was taught anyway!)

[shortstripper]

However - I can see a nice gap right in the middle of your panel just asking for a nice bit of hi-tech electronics.

Sorry SB, that bit in the middle is where the aileron control cross member is located (see second pic and you'll see what I mean). I'd have loved to have used it for something else but it can't be cut into at all.

I've sat in the cockpit again with the idea of "where would I mount it" and the only place would be down on my left. It would just fit, but there's no way I'd reach to change the dial up numbers ... Ok for passive transmit, but no good if asked to squawk a particular number.

SS

[gcolyer]

What about making a bracket/mount and mounting under the panel near your throttle ? i admit it might be a nightmare to make a bracket.

[shortstripper]

What about making a bracket/mount and mounting under the panel near your throttle ? i admit it might be a nightmare to make a bracket.

Where do you think my knees go? Seriously, ask Footless Halls, who visited yesterday. I'm 5'5" and there is little room. He, as a normal 5 foot ? (maybe 6'?) ummm .... well taller than me anyway! had trouble squeezing in at all. The bit in the middle below the panel is where the stick stands when cruising, and my knees are just below the panel either side. You really have to sit in one of these small single seaters to appreciate what I mean!

SS

[chevvron]

Only just discovered this thread.
Luton is not a LARS unit, so any ATSOCA they give you is 'workload permitting' bearing in mind the radar controllers aren't actually at Luton but are at West Drayton in the same room as AlanM and TDM, plus they have to do Essex Radar as well (but not necessarily at the same time).
IO540 regular radar services outside controlled airspace are available from several units such as Brize, Farnborough and Cardiff.
I agree there's a big hole in LARS availability in the south east of England; given a bit of wiring and ingenuity this hole could be filled easily (the radar displays are there as are radar heads), but the money isn't available from ATS providers who are required to show some return for any outlay, so a source of funding needs to be found. Maybe pressure on the D of T to provide funding on a 'safety' stance woild be appropriate?