Plane Crashes In Manhattan
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aardvark2zz
I applaud your calculations...an accelerated stall, low familiarity with the plane by both pilots (possibly, not yet confirmed) and all starting at below 1000'agl.
flight instructors would prefer to practice stalls above 3000' and accelerated stalls even a bit higher.
and add a possible cross control at the moment of stall!
"stick and rudder" should be required reading for all pilots.
a chandelle, thought likely to break the class B airspace and possibly go into cloud might have been one way out...better to hit a cloud than a building, the on board collision avoidance device would have helped out for possible IFR traffic.
I applaud your calculations...an accelerated stall, low familiarity with the plane by both pilots (possibly, not yet confirmed) and all starting at below 1000'agl.
flight instructors would prefer to practice stalls above 3000' and accelerated stalls even a bit higher.
and add a possible cross control at the moment of stall!
"stick and rudder" should be required reading for all pilots.
a chandelle, thought likely to break the class B airspace and possibly go into cloud might have been one way out...better to hit a cloud than a building, the on board collision avoidance device would have helped out for possible IFR traffic.
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instructor
If he felt confident then yes I would let him, if he didn't then I'd advise him to practice some more before he went. It's a good analogy. Anyway, there was an instructor on board. Would you stop everybody driving downtown just because your kid crashed down there? What if it was a driving instructor who crashed, would you stop people driving downtown?
Best
Last edited by grimmrad; 13th Oct 2006 at 19:57. Reason: typo and addition
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Don't ever trust the press for facts. In my experience the never get the facts 100% correct. They're usually doing well if they get it more than 50% right in my expierence.
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press conference
I don't - but even though the NYT has done its shares of journalistic mistakes (i.e. Irak war) - they tend to be one of the more reliable ones.
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If he felt confident then yes I would let him, if he didn't then I'd advise him to practice some more before he went. It's a good analogy. Anyway, there was an instructor on board. Would you stop everybody driving downtown just because your kid crashed down there? What if it was a driving instructor who crashed, would you stop people driving downtown?
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No kidding. I haven't read in any press report yet the fact that the chute must be deployed in order to function. A cover has to be removed, then a handle pulled...they just report the chute didn't deploy, as if it were some self deploying mechanism.
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Obviously, things would have been far better had they simply busted the Class B airspace. It is clear that plenty of accidents happen because pilots are desperately trying to avoid breaking some rule. The GADO hearing officer may have even been a Yankee fan and let him off with a warning.
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Makes me laugh to read the 2 following opposing conclusions ! 
--------------------------------------------------------
Failed U-turn eyed in crash
Tough maneuver, say other pilots BY PETE DONOHUE, AUSTIN FENNER and GREG B. SMITH DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Pilot Henry Duran at Essex County Airport says route up East River poses problems because aircraft have to make U-turn in a narrow corridor below 96th St.
Evidence is emerging that Cory Lidle's plane tried to make a quick turn in a tight spot - and couldn't make it.
The plane was flying north up the East River at 112 mph, staying as far east as it could go between Roosevelt Island and Queens, as if preparing to make a left turn.
Somewhere above the 70s, the plane "made a left turn back toward the south," said Debbie Hersman, lead investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board.
The plane then quickly dropped 200 feet and was last recorded on radar five blocks north of the E. 72nd St. building at an altitude of 500 feet.
Seconds later it slammed into the high-rise.
Another indicator of possible pilot error is that at no time did the unique built-in parachute deploy. Investigators say the ejector apparently detonated on impact and that the parachute was found at the scene, still "tightly packed."
Then there is preliminary evidence that the propellers were still powered by the engine when the plane struck the building, investigators said, an early sign that the fueling system was functioning properly.Federal investigators won't make a formal conclusion about the cause of the crash for months, but so far have no evidence to support initial reports that the crew made a Mayday call.
"I would say that the limited evidence we have to this point tends to point to possible pilot error - but it would be prudent to confirm that there were no issues with aircraft before concluding that's the cause,.....
.... (pilot) "I never went back in there again because I thought it was too tight."
-------------------------------------------
Expert: Lidle Crash Probably Due to Mechanical Failure or Other 'Distractions' ABC's Nance Says Small Aircraft Are Not a Serious Terrorist Threat By ASHLEY PHILLIPS
Oct. 12, 2006 — The small plane crash that killed New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle, Wednesday, was probably caused by a mechanical failure, ABC News aviation expert John Nance said Thursday.
"What we probably have here is something catastrophic going on in that airplane," said Nance. "Fire, engine progressively coming apart and … something going wrong because we've got two qualified guys on a clear day who suddenly are unable to figure out that their airplane is headed [into a building]."
Lidle reportedly boarded a single-engine Cirrus SR20 plane Wednesday afternoon with flight instructor Tyler Stanger for what was presumably a flight around New York City. The pair took off from a New Jersey airport, circled around the Statue of Liberty, flew past lower Manhattan and then north above the East River.
After passing over the 59th Street Bridge on the reportedly 20-minute flight, the plane smashed into a condo building on the Upper East Side, killing both Lidle and Stanger.
Nance based his assessment on the reported flight path and eyewitness accounts. AA>> Eyewitnesses. Hahahahahaa <<
A Stalled Plane or Flight Distractions?
Because of the flight path and the fact that the plane did not end up in the East River, Nance said he did not believe the plane had stalled.
......then the only thing left is distraction," he said. "How do you get distracted in a small airplane with a clear canopy? You get distracted if you're fighting for your life somehow, and that means either flight control problems or something else." ........
--------------------------------------------------------
Failed U-turn eyed in crash
Tough maneuver, say other pilots BY PETE DONOHUE, AUSTIN FENNER and GREG B. SMITH DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Pilot Henry Duran at Essex County Airport says route up East River poses problems because aircraft have to make U-turn in a narrow corridor below 96th St.
Evidence is emerging that Cory Lidle's plane tried to make a quick turn in a tight spot - and couldn't make it.
The plane was flying north up the East River at 112 mph, staying as far east as it could go between Roosevelt Island and Queens, as if preparing to make a left turn.
Somewhere above the 70s, the plane "made a left turn back toward the south," said Debbie Hersman, lead investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board.
The plane then quickly dropped 200 feet and was last recorded on radar five blocks north of the E. 72nd St. building at an altitude of 500 feet.
Seconds later it slammed into the high-rise.
Another indicator of possible pilot error is that at no time did the unique built-in parachute deploy. Investigators say the ejector apparently detonated on impact and that the parachute was found at the scene, still "tightly packed."
Then there is preliminary evidence that the propellers were still powered by the engine when the plane struck the building, investigators said, an early sign that the fueling system was functioning properly.Federal investigators won't make a formal conclusion about the cause of the crash for months, but so far have no evidence to support initial reports that the crew made a Mayday call.
"I would say that the limited evidence we have to this point tends to point to possible pilot error - but it would be prudent to confirm that there were no issues with aircraft before concluding that's the cause,.....
.... (pilot) "I never went back in there again because I thought it was too tight."
-------------------------------------------
Expert: Lidle Crash Probably Due to Mechanical Failure or Other 'Distractions' ABC's Nance Says Small Aircraft Are Not a Serious Terrorist Threat By ASHLEY PHILLIPS
Oct. 12, 2006 — The small plane crash that killed New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle, Wednesday, was probably caused by a mechanical failure, ABC News aviation expert John Nance said Thursday.
"What we probably have here is something catastrophic going on in that airplane," said Nance. "Fire, engine progressively coming apart and … something going wrong because we've got two qualified guys on a clear day who suddenly are unable to figure out that their airplane is headed [into a building]."
Lidle reportedly boarded a single-engine Cirrus SR20 plane Wednesday afternoon with flight instructor Tyler Stanger for what was presumably a flight around New York City. The pair took off from a New Jersey airport, circled around the Statue of Liberty, flew past lower Manhattan and then north above the East River.
After passing over the 59th Street Bridge on the reportedly 20-minute flight, the plane smashed into a condo building on the Upper East Side, killing both Lidle and Stanger.
Nance based his assessment on the reported flight path and eyewitness accounts. AA>> Eyewitnesses. Hahahahahaa <<
A Stalled Plane or Flight Distractions?
Because of the flight path and the fact that the plane did not end up in the East River, Nance said he did not believe the plane had stalled.
......then the only thing left is distraction," he said. "How do you get distracted in a small airplane with a clear canopy? You get distracted if you're fighting for your life somehow, and that means either flight control problems or something else." ........
Wrong Airplane turned at Wrong Place
No problem with a C-172 at 70 kt. and the newspapers are turning up a number of pilots who have done it just fine -- along with quite a few who have taken a pass.
They could have flown up East of Roosevelt Island and made the turn at the North end -- the river's 850 m. wide at that point and there's several blocks before the 50 story towers on the West bank start getting in the way of errant a/c.
Looks like an NPRM mandating a counter-clockwise circuit around Roosevelt Island and a maximum airspeed will be in the works.
Who would have dreamed of a box canyon accident in Manhattan?
They could have flown up East of Roosevelt Island and made the turn at the North end -- the river's 850 m. wide at that point and there's several blocks before the 50 story towers on the West bank start getting in the way of errant a/c.
Looks like an NPRM mandating a counter-clockwise circuit around Roosevelt Island and a maximum airspeed will be in the works.
Who would have dreamed of a box canyon accident in Manhattan?
Last edited by RatherBeFlying; 13th Oct 2006 at 21:24. Reason: correction
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I just don't see how mandating a pattern makes much sense or solves any problem. A counter-clockwise pattern around Roosevelt Island puts you even closer to the buildings...that's sure to inspire public confidence in any "new rules".
I do think that the unfamiliarity of Class B (particularly NYC's) and the intimidation factor of dealing with ATC in Class B plays a big role here. If they had requested Class B/higher altitude, they would be clear of all obstacles - buildings, bridges, majority of other GA traffic, etc. I guess it's just reality that some people are intimidated by ATC and the R/T in a busy airspace like NYC. Because of this, they don't ask for Class B entry and prefer to avoid it altogether - I've always erred on the side of calling up ATC and getting service whenever I'm near busy airspace. It's ok to avoid controlled airspace when you're in less congested areas.
Maybe the FAA should recommend additional R/T training for the PPL - I think it's just 5-10 hours now and mostly at Class D airports. I'm still just PPL (non-instrument) but learned my flying out of RDU Class C and then NYC Class B - I think the experience was invaluable in learning to keep up with the pace of ATC in busy areas like this. I live on the on NJ side of the Hudson and constantly see fixed wing flying very low amongst all the helicopter traffic - I just always shake my head and wonder why people want to hassle with the numerous helicopters. There isn't a lot of sightseeing difference between 800' and 1500' (my opinion).
In every flight, you are required to be familiar with the airspace through which you are about to fly. I don't know why they would have thought a u-turn in a relatively unfamiliar aircraft at 100+ knots at 500-700' AGL in a narrow corridor of unfamiliar airspace was a good idea.
People make mistakes - I just hope that others learn from it and learn to prepare, think ahead, and ask for help if you have any doubt whatsoever.
If you plan to fly near Manhattan, please, call LGA on 126.05 and request 1500'.
I do think that the unfamiliarity of Class B (particularly NYC's) and the intimidation factor of dealing with ATC in Class B plays a big role here. If they had requested Class B/higher altitude, they would be clear of all obstacles - buildings, bridges, majority of other GA traffic, etc. I guess it's just reality that some people are intimidated by ATC and the R/T in a busy airspace like NYC. Because of this, they don't ask for Class B entry and prefer to avoid it altogether - I've always erred on the side of calling up ATC and getting service whenever I'm near busy airspace. It's ok to avoid controlled airspace when you're in less congested areas.
Maybe the FAA should recommend additional R/T training for the PPL - I think it's just 5-10 hours now and mostly at Class D airports. I'm still just PPL (non-instrument) but learned my flying out of RDU Class C and then NYC Class B - I think the experience was invaluable in learning to keep up with the pace of ATC in busy areas like this. I live on the on NJ side of the Hudson and constantly see fixed wing flying very low amongst all the helicopter traffic - I just always shake my head and wonder why people want to hassle with the numerous helicopters. There isn't a lot of sightseeing difference between 800' and 1500' (my opinion).
In every flight, you are required to be familiar with the airspace through which you are about to fly. I don't know why they would have thought a u-turn in a relatively unfamiliar aircraft at 100+ knots at 500-700' AGL in a narrow corridor of unfamiliar airspace was a good idea.
People make mistakes - I just hope that others learn from it and learn to prepare, think ahead, and ask for help if you have any doubt whatsoever.
If you plan to fly near Manhattan, please, call LGA on 126.05 and request 1500'.
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Breaking news... FAA bans low altitude flights along the East River...
www.cnn.com - no further details.
Booooooo...
www.cnn.com - no further details.
Booooooo...
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New rule for East River
I guess it's a compromise...must be under ATC control above 1100' for fixed wing on the East River. Helicopters are still able to fly below 1100' without permission...which makes perfect sense of course.
Why knee jerk and only go half-way? Must be elections in a few weeks...
Why knee jerk and only go half-way? Must be elections in a few weeks...
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Breaking news... FAA bans low altitude flights along the East River...
www.cnn.com - no further details.
Booooooo...
www.cnn.com - no further details.
Booooooo...
I don't belive there are any reasons to impose any new restrictions, I think that the pilot mad ea serious judgement error and paid the price, no worse than people who drive to fast on the freeway for conditions and end up getting killed. Airspace restrictions or the lack thereof played little or no role.
I flew right over the building, its scorched up pretty good on the outside, it is hard to undertand how they hit it from the river when the crash site is on the north side, just south of a taller building. I'll try to get a picture up soon.
-Aaron Clark
Helicopter Flight Training
Long Island NY
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What about more explosiv stuff? Or even worse: some radioactive material or biological agents to be spread (or sprayed) from the plane?? No enough to kill probably - but can you imagine the panick of the people once it gets known (if it gets known but I am not going that way now)...
You could load anything you want, and do alot of damage potentially, but the fact is, unless they place SAM's atop every rooftop, and have itchy trigger fingers (leading to lots of accidently shot down aircraft) then nothing will stop a terrorist in the air.
The only place to stop them is on the ground, before they take off.
Fighters would take to long. Airspace restrictions (Total ban over the city) can't actually stop anything (its not a force field). Shoulder missles from troopies on the ground would end up shooting down to many friendlies and even if we did shoot them down, if they had biological or radiological agents, shooting them down would just spread it around the area outside of Manhattan, but still in a populated area.
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terrorist
You could load anything you want, and do alot of damage potentially, but the fact is, unless they place SAM's atop every rooftop, and have itchy trigger fingers (leading to lots of accidently shot down aircraft) then nothing will stop a terrorist in the air.
The only place to stop them is on the ground, before they take off.
Fighters would take to long. Airspace restrictions (Total ban over the city) can't actually stop anything (its not a force field). Shoulder missles from troopies on the ground would end up shooting down to many friendlies and even if we did shoot them down, if they had biological or radiological agents, shooting them down would just spread it around the area outside of Manhattan, but still in a populated area.
The only place to stop them is on the ground, before they take off.
Fighters would take to long. Airspace restrictions (Total ban over the city) can't actually stop anything (its not a force field). Shoulder missles from troopies on the ground would end up shooting down to many friendlies and even if we did shoot them down, if they had biological or radiological agents, shooting them down would just spread it around the area outside of Manhattan, but still in a populated area.
Last edited by grimmrad; 14th Oct 2006 at 00:48. Reason: typo
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Details small aircraft ban on East River unless in contact with ATC
Small aircraft ban on East River unless in contact with ATC...
FAA Restricts Flights Over East River
By LESLIE MILLER (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
October 14, 2006 2:29 AM EDT
WASHINGTON - Reacting to the crash that killed a New York Yankees pitcher, the Federal Aviation Administration has added new flight restrictions to the air space over New York's East River.
The regulations will affect small aircraft, but not helicopters, that were previously permitted to fly over the river, which runs along the east side of Manhattan Island.
Also exempted are planes that fly in and out of a seaplane base in the river. Pilots of those aircraft are more familiar with the airspace than most private pilots.
Under Friday's announcement by the FAA, most small, fixed-wing planes are banned from the area unless the pilot is in contact with air traffic controllers.
The new flight restrictions went into immediate effect.
The FAA, though, said it changed the rule because of safety rather than security considerations.
"You get some real strange winds going through those canyons of buildings," said Bill Waldock, aviation safety professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University at Prescott, Ariz.
"It's a weird area to try to maneuver airplanes in anyway," Waldock said.
FAA Restricts Flights Over East River
By LESLIE MILLER (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
October 14, 2006 2:29 AM EDT
WASHINGTON - Reacting to the crash that killed a New York Yankees pitcher, the Federal Aviation Administration has added new flight restrictions to the air space over New York's East River.
The regulations will affect small aircraft, but not helicopters, that were previously permitted to fly over the river, which runs along the east side of Manhattan Island.
Also exempted are planes that fly in and out of a seaplane base in the river. Pilots of those aircraft are more familiar with the airspace than most private pilots.
Under Friday's announcement by the FAA, most small, fixed-wing planes are banned from the area unless the pilot is in contact with air traffic controllers.
The new flight restrictions went into immediate effect.
The FAA, though, said it changed the rule because of safety rather than security considerations.
"You get some real strange winds going through those canyons of buildings," said Bill Waldock, aviation safety professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University at Prescott, Ariz.
"It's a weird area to try to maneuver airplanes in anyway," Waldock said.
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!FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.
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If I ever flew in that area, that's the only way I would do it.
I've flown a couple of times around CYYZ airspace at 1600 msl (1000 agl) / No ATC and it made me very nervous to be that low.
... Never mind ~500 above a river and in a densely built up area !
Mike
I've flown a couple of times around CYYZ airspace at 1600 msl (1000 agl) / No ATC and it made me very nervous to be that low.
... Never mind ~500 above a river and in a densely built up area !
Mike
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That was a balloon handled by volunteers for the Macy's parade
The resident of the apartment was the person injured by the street lights.
Last edited by MNBluestater; 15th Oct 2006 at 08:30.
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How would contacting ATC have helped in this accident ??? Or prevent a future one ??
I say force small planes to fly 100 ft below the CZ. e.g. at 1100 ft over Hudson and 1000 ft over East River.
I flew at 1000-1100 ft over the Hudson and those bridges and skyscrapers are mighty close !!
I say force small planes to fly 100 ft below the CZ. e.g. at 1100 ft over Hudson and 1000 ft over East River.
I flew at 1000-1100 ft over the Hudson and those bridges and skyscrapers are mighty close !!
Breaking news... FAA bans low altitude flights along the East River...
www.cnn.com - no further details.
Booooooo...
www.cnn.com - no further details.
Booooooo...