Night Flying in Ireland Question
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Night Flying in Ireland Question
I got into a bit of bother with an Irish controller regarding landing at a private strip after the published 'end of VFR'. What I was trying to explain to the Irish controller was that I was going to fly the aircraft under Instrument Flight Rules, but in VMC. He said to me that I had to be VFR to be able to land at the strip. I said I didn't, I could still be under IFR, the fact that I was in VMC was irellevant. I was not on a Published Instrument Procedure but had decended to break cloud below about 5000ft QNH.
Even if you come down a published instrument procedure then you still must be able to see what you are doing to be able to land!!! (OK exceptions for auto land but i'm flying a SE Cessna)
Any comments??
Even if you come down a published instrument procedure then you still must be able to see what you are doing to be able to land!!! (OK exceptions for auto land but i'm flying a SE Cessna)
Any comments??
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What was the controllers objection? Was it that you were flying IFR without an instrument rating? Or was it that you were performing a landing under IFR on a non published instrument proceedure?
Two further questions for you.
1. Do you hold an Instrument Rating (not an IMC rating)?
2. What was the country of registration of the aircraft?
Two further questions for you.
1. Do you hold an Instrument Rating (not an IMC rating)?
2. What was the country of registration of the aircraft?
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As I recall the Irish do not have the same rules as us for flight at night. You can only fly IFR with an ICAO Instrument rating valid on the aircraft reg you are flying.
I seem to recall that you can fly SVFR but only in a control zone which made night flying a little limited! Dublin pilot will be able to cast more light on it.
Certainly when I went to Dubliun recently arriving after dark they were quite insistent on verifying I had an IR valid in my G-Reg.
I seem to recall that you can fly SVFR but only in a control zone which made night flying a little limited! Dublin pilot will be able to cast more light on it.
Certainly when I went to Dubliun recently arriving after dark they were quite insistent on verifying I had an IR valid in my G-Reg.
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IFR at night in Ireland is allowed as long as you are coming from and or going to an airport with approved facilities ( Dublin, Cork, Knock, Shannon etc...)
You cannot fly IFR or VFR at night and land at a strip with no approved facilities as I believe you can in the U.K.
You can only Fly SVFR (Night) in controlled airspace.
The UK Imc rating holds no merit in Ireland.
All of the above = Red Tape !
You cannot fly IFR or VFR at night and land at a strip with no approved facilities as I believe you can in the U.K.
You can only Fly SVFR (Night) in controlled airspace.
The UK Imc rating holds no merit in Ireland.
All of the above = Red Tape !
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Certainly when I went to Dubliun recently arriving after dark they were quite insistent on verifying I had an IR valid in my G-Reg.
Was this ATC asking you, or somebody on the ground afterwards?
What "facilities" are needed for a night operation? Presumably one would need runway lights; that's true in the UK too and is pretty obvious.
Was this ATC asking you, or somebody on the ground afterwards?
What "facilities" are needed for a night operation? Presumably one would need runway lights; that's true in the UK too and is pretty obvious.
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Flight at night in Ireland is only IFR outside a control zone or SVFR inside a control zone. Therefore to fly at night anywhere of use in Eire requires a Full Instrument rating.
On the ground at Dublin I was given a "reminder" that flight at night in Eire was IFR and therefore required an Instrument rating. It was also intimated to me that UK pilots turning up on an IMC and arriving at dark were violating the rules. I got the impression that they have had a number of people blagging there way in.
After I pointed out that I had arrived on an airways flight plan all went quiet....
On the ground at Dublin I was given a "reminder" that flight at night in Eire was IFR and therefore required an Instrument rating. It was also intimated to me that UK pilots turning up on an IMC and arriving at dark were violating the rules. I got the impression that they have had a number of people blagging there way in.
After I pointed out that I had arrived on an airways flight plan all went quiet....
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Dublin Pilot...
I'm really trying to clear this one up. I do have an Instrument Rating valid on the reg. of aircraft I fly. It's a really funny one because what i'm saying is that the flight is conducted under IFR but in VMC, obviously otherwise it would be pretty tricky to land at the strip in bad weather. I've had arguments with the Shannon Controllers about this because they keep trying to get me to change to VFR but I keep saying that I want to stay under instrument flight rules for the entire duration of my flight....or do I HAVE to change to VFR at some point.
It seem's like an interpretation to me more than rules in black and white!
I'm really trying to clear this one up. I do have an Instrument Rating valid on the reg. of aircraft I fly. It's a really funny one because what i'm saying is that the flight is conducted under IFR but in VMC, obviously otherwise it would be pretty tricky to land at the strip in bad weather. I've had arguments with the Shannon Controllers about this because they keep trying to get me to change to VFR but I keep saying that I want to stay under instrument flight rules for the entire duration of my flight....or do I HAVE to change to VFR at some point.
It seem's like an interpretation to me more than rules in black and white!
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I have to be honest here and say that I don't know a lot about IFR rules here. I'm not IFR rated.
Bose X is quite correct in what he says though.
Outside a control zone at night, there is only IFR at night here.
Inside a control zone you have the option of IFR or Special VFR.
At no stage during official night do you have the option of being VFR anywhere in Ireland. It's simply not allowed.
Was the airport you were going to within a control zone? If so presumably they were trying to get you to change to SVFR? Presumably because you can't desend below minimum safe altitudes unless on a published approach.
If we can establish that
a) you were trying to land somewhere inside or outside a control zone, and
b) whether the controller was trying to get you to change to VFR or SVFR, and
c) if they only wanted you to change before your final descent,
then you'll be giving me a big help in terms of looking through the regs to find the issue for you!
dp
ps. We have none of this concept of IFR VMC vs IFR IMC here. If you are IFR you are instrument rated, and are capable of going into cloud. If you're not instrument rated, you can't fly IFR. So the whole thing about being IMC or VMC when IFR doesn't really come into it....hence the controller confusion over that.
Bose X is quite correct in what he says though.
Outside a control zone at night, there is only IFR at night here.
Inside a control zone you have the option of IFR or Special VFR.
At no stage during official night do you have the option of being VFR anywhere in Ireland. It's simply not allowed.
Was the airport you were going to within a control zone? If so presumably they were trying to get you to change to SVFR? Presumably because you can't desend below minimum safe altitudes unless on a published approach.
If we can establish that
a) you were trying to land somewhere inside or outside a control zone, and
b) whether the controller was trying to get you to change to VFR or SVFR, and
c) if they only wanted you to change before your final descent,
then you'll be giving me a big help in terms of looking through the regs to find the issue for you!
dp
ps. We have none of this concept of IFR VMC vs IFR IMC here. If you are IFR you are instrument rated, and are capable of going into cloud. If you're not instrument rated, you can't fly IFR. So the whole thing about being IMC or VMC when IFR doesn't really come into it....hence the controller confusion over that.
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The question I would ask is whether the said strip has lights and can be used at night.
If so, but it doesn't have an instrument approach, how the hell does anybody land there?
I don't think one can do an IFR landing other than on an instrument approach.
Of course this night=IFR rule would prevent all night operations except at airports with instrument approaches, so it must be nonsense.
How does one resolve this?
In the USA it works because you can fly VFR at night. You get visual, cancel IFR (explicitly or not), and land.
In the UK (night=IFR) it works because anything goes so long as it is VMC. Also a plain PPL can fly IFR in VMC which legalises his night privileges.
If so, but it doesn't have an instrument approach, how the hell does anybody land there?
I don't think one can do an IFR landing other than on an instrument approach.
Of course this night=IFR rule would prevent all night operations except at airports with instrument approaches, so it must be nonsense.
How does one resolve this?
In the USA it works because you can fly VFR at night. You get visual, cancel IFR (explicitly or not), and land.
In the UK (night=IFR) it works because anything goes so long as it is VMC. Also a plain PPL can fly IFR in VMC which legalises his night privileges.
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This night flying/ VFR/ IFR/ VMC/ IMC question is quite interesting and can cause confusion among pilots who fly VFR around Europe. In many European countries VFR flight at night is permitted, although often with more stict weather minima. For example, in Finland VFR flight at night is permitted but for cross country flight there must be no cloud below 2000ft, visibility of at least 8km and the minumum height increases from 500ft AGL to 1000ft AGL. This I found from the Finnish AIP, though I normally fly IFR.
My advice is check the AIP for any country you are planning to fly to.
Does anyone know if regulations such as this will be harmonised in Europe in the not-too-distant future?
My advice is check the AIP for any country you are planning to fly to.
Does anyone know if regulations such as this will be harmonised in Europe in the not-too-distant future?
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DublinPilot,
The strip that I fly to is outside controlled airspace and the controller was trying to get me to change to VFR, not SVFR.
The controller did want me to change to VFR prior to my final decent,
When you say:
"We have none of this concept of IFR VMC vs IFR IMC here. If you are IFR you are instrument rated, and are capable of going into cloud. If you're not instrument rated, you can't fly IFR. So the whole thing about being IMC or VMC when IFR doesn't really come into it....hence the controller confusion over that"
I think you are confusing the term 'IMC' (being the abreviation for Instrument Meteorlogical Conditions) for the IMC rating my friend.
What i'm trying to establish is can you be in Visual Meteorlogical Conditions but under instrument flight rules?
Also DublinPilot,
There is always a concept of being in VMC/IMC when IFR because if you are flying in the finest of weather (VMC) you can still be under Instrument Flight Rules. So saying that VMC/IMC doesn't come into it is wrong.
Prior to a change to VFR from IFR you MUST be VMC, obviously!. This means you are in VMC but still under IFR until cleared otherwise.....does this make sense?
....and yes the strip does have lights, VASI, and REIL.
I wish the rules would be plain and communication with the IAA easy! Tried e-mailing and phoning only to get a doughnut on the phone who has no idea what they are talking about!! (no joke)
The strip that I fly to is outside controlled airspace and the controller was trying to get me to change to VFR, not SVFR.
The controller did want me to change to VFR prior to my final decent,
When you say:
"We have none of this concept of IFR VMC vs IFR IMC here. If you are IFR you are instrument rated, and are capable of going into cloud. If you're not instrument rated, you can't fly IFR. So the whole thing about being IMC or VMC when IFR doesn't really come into it....hence the controller confusion over that"
I think you are confusing the term 'IMC' (being the abreviation for Instrument Meteorlogical Conditions) for the IMC rating my friend.
What i'm trying to establish is can you be in Visual Meteorlogical Conditions but under instrument flight rules?
Also DublinPilot,
There is always a concept of being in VMC/IMC when IFR because if you are flying in the finest of weather (VMC) you can still be under Instrument Flight Rules. So saying that VMC/IMC doesn't come into it is wrong.
Prior to a change to VFR from IFR you MUST be VMC, obviously!. This means you are in VMC but still under IFR until cleared otherwise.....does this make sense?
....and yes the strip does have lights, VASI, and REIL.
I wish the rules would be plain and communication with the IAA easy! Tried e-mailing and phoning only to get a doughnut on the phone who has no idea what they are talking about!! (no joke)
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The bottom line (as I belive) is that one cannot fly at night into private strips, regardless of the facilities, or the pilot's rating.
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ye i think you are probably right ronnie, that would probably be the main intention of banning VFR at night.
I'd like to see what they come up with when GPS approaches are approved though.
I'd like to see what they come up with when GPS approaches are approved though.
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Nouse,
No I wasn't confusing the IMC rating with IMConditions. What I meant is that in the UK, it's possible for someone without an IR to fly under IFR once they are in VMC. They obviously can not go into IMC. If they have an IR then they can fly in either IMC or VMC.
In Ireland if you have no IR, then you can not fly under IFR (even in VMC). So by defination if you are flying under IFR in Ireland, then you must have IR, and you are not restricted to VMC. So ATC may have wondered why you were telling them you were VMC. That's all I was trying to say.
Anyway, leaving that aside, and to the case in hand. If the strip was outside controlled airspace, then you were correct to refuse ATCs request to change to VFR. VFR at night is simply not allowed in Ireland. I can look it up and give you the reference if required....I know it's there.
What I don't know is the IFR side......ie. can you make an approach under IFR where no published proceedure is available, outside controlled airspace. I'll have a look through the AIP and see if I can find any guideance for you on this.
dp
No I wasn't confusing the IMC rating with IMConditions. What I meant is that in the UK, it's possible for someone without an IR to fly under IFR once they are in VMC. They obviously can not go into IMC. If they have an IR then they can fly in either IMC or VMC.
In Ireland if you have no IR, then you can not fly under IFR (even in VMC). So by defination if you are flying under IFR in Ireland, then you must have IR, and you are not restricted to VMC. So ATC may have wondered why you were telling them you were VMC. That's all I was trying to say.
Anyway, leaving that aside, and to the case in hand. If the strip was outside controlled airspace, then you were correct to refuse ATCs request to change to VFR. VFR at night is simply not allowed in Ireland. I can look it up and give you the reference if required....I know it's there.
What I don't know is the IFR side......ie. can you make an approach under IFR where no published proceedure is available, outside controlled airspace. I'll have a look through the AIP and see if I can find any guideance for you on this.
dp
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IO540, to answer your question above, you can file an IFR flight plan, fly from A to B and request a visual approach (min. vis. 800m) or be asked to report when ready for visial. By making a visual approach you are NOT cancelling your IFR plan and continuing VFR, you are just making the approach and landing using visual cues, in transport category aircraft also usually using DME etc to monitor progress.
Last edited by AFIS; 30th Sep 2006 at 06:51. Reason: TO NOT LECTURE!
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and dublinpilot... no published procedure = no instrument approach but visual approach. For example, descending to MSA, using a procedure at a nearby airfield or radar vectors for cloud break. As long as you remain under IFR you're O.K. Done this many times. Now, airfield also has to be equipped for night flying with lighting etc.
Last edited by AFIS; 30th Sep 2006 at 06:52. Reason: As above
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AFIS - all very well to give a lecture on safety but the context of this thread appears to be a specific regulatory issue concerning a matter which is obvious in its alleged breach. This is very different to e.g. in-flight visibility which cannot be satisfactorily determined both during a flight and afterwards.
You are right about a "visual approach" under IFR. I was doing that in the USA and for some reason thought it's called something different over here. Airliners do that routinely when they go to places with nice weather.
You are right about a "visual approach" under IFR. I was doing that in the USA and for some reason thought it's called something different over here. Airliners do that routinely when they go to places with nice weather.
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Apologies I0540, my intention was not to lecture, only to offer advice based on 24 years of flying... and I'm learning every day, maybe why I keep flying. I also find this quite interesting.
The way I see it:
Stay IFR make a visual approach. If IMC rating not valid (like in most of Europe) if not IR holder check AIP for night qualification, VFR by night regulations etc.
If flying in VMC at night under IFR, as in UK, maintain VMC. Below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and you are still legally able to proceed under IFR. Not sure how it is in Ireland but AIP should state ICAO differences. Runway lights etc... make visual approach. Whole flight done under IFR.
The way I see it:
Stay IFR make a visual approach. If IMC rating not valid (like in most of Europe) if not IR holder check AIP for night qualification, VFR by night regulations etc.
If flying in VMC at night under IFR, as in UK, maintain VMC. Below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and you are still legally able to proceed under IFR. Not sure how it is in Ireland but AIP should state ICAO differences. Runway lights etc... make visual approach. Whole flight done under IFR.
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Thanks for your help DublinPilot but just to clear the IMC rating thing up...an IMC rated pilot can fly IFR in IMC but there are restrictions based upon controlled airspace, being in UK FIR only, and take off/landing RVR's are increased compared to that available to an IR pilot.
You have got a grasp of what i'm trying to find out though. I know there is no flight permitted under Visual Flight RULES at night in Ireland but can you conduct a flight under Instrument Flight rules, into a strip with all adequate lighting and safety equipment etc. but with no Instrument Appch. Procedure?
.....I can't see how they would say you can't be VMC at night because even if you land in Shannon, Cork, Dublin or anywhere on their IAP you still have to be in Visual Meteorlogical Conditions to be able to land!!!!
You have got a grasp of what i'm trying to find out though. I know there is no flight permitted under Visual Flight RULES at night in Ireland but can you conduct a flight under Instrument Flight rules, into a strip with all adequate lighting and safety equipment etc. but with no Instrument Appch. Procedure?
.....I can't see how they would say you can't be VMC at night because even if you land in Shannon, Cork, Dublin or anywhere on their IAP you still have to be in Visual Meteorlogical Conditions to be able to land!!!!