Tips for the perfect landing?
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Read this booK
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Perfect.../dp/0813804388
It's called Making perfect Landings in Light Airplanes by Ron Fowler.
It's very good and I read it first about the time I had your level of experience
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Perfect.../dp/0813804388
It's called Making perfect Landings in Light Airplanes by Ron Fowler.
It's very good and I read it first about the time I had your level of experience
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The Warrior/Archer can IMHO be quite heavy on the elevators in the round-out/flare, particularly with only a front-seater. This can result in the pullback required to round and and flare being perhaps greater than ideal and possibly sometimes making it a little difficult to do smoothly. I usually wind on a bit of nose-up trim on fairly short final - with a bit of practice its quite possible to transition from in-trim to slight nose up trim without upsetting the final approach gradient - and then rather than pulling back the round out/flare can become slightly more a case of reducing forward pressure.
I will admit that this practice was offered to me by one long-time instructor some years ago, but has also been frowned on by others I've encountered during checkouts, etc. who say once trimmed for final the trim should be left alone.
WARNING - if you try this, DO NOT let go of the column and do it gently. I would recommend practicing at altitude rather than trying it a few hundred feet off the ground and suddenly finding the aircraft pitching up at low power!
I will admit that this practice was offered to me by one long-time instructor some years ago, but has also been frowned on by others I've encountered during checkouts, etc. who say once trimmed for final the trim should be left alone.
WARNING - if you try this, DO NOT let go of the column and do it gently. I would recommend practicing at altitude rather than trying it a few hundred feet off the ground and suddenly finding the aircraft pitching up at low power!
Avoid imitations
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Roll over.
All the previous advice is rubbish.
The correct way to make a perfectly smooth landing is to come neatly to a hover then gently lower the collective lever.
(P.S. You are in the wrong type of aircraft).
All the previous advice is rubbish.
The correct way to make a perfectly smooth landing is to come neatly to a hover then gently lower the collective lever.
(P.S. You are in the wrong type of aircraft).
Hovering AND talking
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Tried that ShyT, didn't work! Still came down with a thud and a thump and a funny expression on my instructor's face as his found his loose filling!
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Avoid imitations
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You are supposed to do it with your mouth closed... 
Hovering, that is..
Hovering, that is..
Hovering AND talking
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No, I still have to do that kiddie-concentration thing of sticking my tongue in my cheek!
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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East Mids
Please note that I am not trying to score points with this post, but to add some balance for any low houred PPLs reading.
Although I understand where you are coming from (and I believe that some autoland systems on airliners do the same thing), one needs to understand the pitch up forces in the event of a go around.
I have been known to trim the PA28 to 65kts on short final when light and even that will result in a pronounced nose up attitude if full power is applied, so trimming beyond this point (which I understand your post to imply) is not something to do without serious consideration of the practicalities arising in the event of a baulked landing or other event leading to a G/A.
In the event of the pilot being unable to counter the pitch up quickly enough, there is a high probability of departure stall, which is unlikely to be survivable.
In a PA28 with a C of G towards the front limit one must be prepared to pull the yoke all the way back in the flare and keep pulling even when the yoke gets to the latter part of the travel and starts to move upwards as well as backwards.
Some aircraft, with "winterized" high capacity batteries in the engine bay required a specially firm pull, so its always good to note the location of the battery during the walkaround.
Please note that I am not trying to score points with this post, but to add some balance for any low houred PPLs reading.
Although I understand where you are coming from (and I believe that some autoland systems on airliners do the same thing), one needs to understand the pitch up forces in the event of a go around.
I have been known to trim the PA28 to 65kts on short final when light and even that will result in a pronounced nose up attitude if full power is applied, so trimming beyond this point (which I understand your post to imply) is not something to do without serious consideration of the practicalities arising in the event of a baulked landing or other event leading to a G/A.
In the event of the pilot being unable to counter the pitch up quickly enough, there is a high probability of departure stall, which is unlikely to be survivable.
In a PA28 with a C of G towards the front limit one must be prepared to pull the yoke all the way back in the flare and keep pulling even when the yoke gets to the latter part of the travel and starts to move upwards as well as backwards.
Some aircraft, with "winterized" high capacity batteries in the engine bay required a specially firm pull, so its always good to note the location of the battery during the walkaround.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 26th Sep 2006 at 09:16. Reason: Added reason for post.
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I've been flying the Archer II/III for nearly 3 years, and I've found that the key to a smooth landing is definately correct speed control! You certainly do not want to be going faster than 65kts on short final because it will almost certainly float, or touch down flat.
A normal circuit for me goes something like this:
Downwind: 2000 RPM, 90kts clean
Base Leg: 1500 RPM, Speed in to white arc, 25deg of flap, descend to maintain 80kts.
Final: Full flap, reduce to 70kts
Short final: trim for 65 kts, adjust power to maintain profile.
A normal circuit for me goes something like this:
Downwind: 2000 RPM, 90kts clean
Base Leg: 1500 RPM, Speed in to white arc, 25deg of flap, descend to maintain 80kts.
Final: Full flap, reduce to 70kts
Short final: trim for 65 kts, adjust power to maintain profile.
Gender Faculty Specialist
What's a perfect landing?
It's when you touch down at the right speed and at the right place. Once you can do that, and there are many professionals who still can't, then you can start to finesse your technique to get a smoother landing. But ALWAYS land at the right speed in the right place first and foremost...ALWAYS.
I really hope that was a joke because if it wasn't, one day, somebody will be pulling you out of the hedge at the far end of the runway.
It's when you touch down at the right speed and at the right place. Once you can do that, and there are many professionals who still can't, then you can start to finesse your technique to get a smoother landing. But ALWAYS land at the right speed in the right place first and foremost...ALWAYS.
When you flare your job is to stop the thing from landing for as long as possible. It will land when it is ready, not when you think it should.
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Chesty
As a building leaping ATPL, you have probably fogotten your mere PPL days
I think the technique is not literal (I hope so, or it would involve smooching along in ground effect with the right level of power set), but rather taught by instructors to try and prevent studes and others burying the 150 into terra firma nosewheel first.
Even whilst attempting this technique, I bet that a fair amount still touch down with a little excess airspeed. See my earlier comments about the extent of the backward "pull" required to land a forward c of g PA28 for example. How many people get the yoke back into their chests in the flare, I wonder?
Firm, but consistent, arrivals in the touchdown zone tend to appear a little later in the syllabus IIRC, unless a short grass strip is involved.
I learned on 1600m of tarmac and certainly couldn't touch down consistently in the right area until I moved to a short grass strip and some kind soul showed me how.
I ain't defending it, but that's my experience.
I didn't really learn to land anything like well until a kindly TRE showed me how in a sim, to be fair he was in a different league of instructional capability to anything I ever encountered in the private flying world.
To this day, I have total respect for the standards required by the big European airlines and was lucky to see the gulf between that and PPL pottering about. Made me realise that it was important for us amateurs to develop a professional attitude, the most important part of which was a very realistic view of our own capability.
As a building leaping ATPL, you have probably fogotten your mere PPL days
I think the technique is not literal (I hope so, or it would involve smooching along in ground effect with the right level of power set), but rather taught by instructors to try and prevent studes and others burying the 150 into terra firma nosewheel first.
Even whilst attempting this technique, I bet that a fair amount still touch down with a little excess airspeed. See my earlier comments about the extent of the backward "pull" required to land a forward c of g PA28 for example. How many people get the yoke back into their chests in the flare, I wonder?
Firm, but consistent, arrivals in the touchdown zone tend to appear a little later in the syllabus IIRC
, unless a short grass strip is involved.I learned on 1600m of tarmac and certainly couldn't touch down consistently in the right area until I moved to a short grass strip and some kind soul showed me how.
I ain't defending it, but that's my experience.
I didn't really learn to land anything like well until a kindly TRE showed me how in a sim, to be fair he was in a different league of instructional capability to anything I ever encountered in the private flying world.
To this day, I have total respect for the standards required by the big European airlines and was lucky to see the gulf between that and PPL pottering about. Made me realise that it was important for us amateurs to develop a professional attitude, the most important part of which was a very realistic view of our own capability.
Gender Faculty Specialist
As a building leaping ATPL, you have probably fogotten your mere PPL days
I accept your point about not wanting to hammer the nose wheel in first. But surely teaching the right techniques from the word go would be far more constructive to a good landing? Fly the approach at the right speed, land at the right speed and you will vastly reduce the chances of a destructive arrival! I don't know I've never been an instructor.
I regularly fly with First Officers whose sole aim when landing is a smooth touchdown. They fly 10 knots fast down the approach, they do not reduce power in the flare and consequently spend a rather excessive time at about 5 feet. Sometimes they achieve a smooth touch down. Most of the time, and I mean about 90%, they end up either:
A. Running out of runway or;
B. Smashing the poor lady in anyway.
3 times in as many weeks I've had to take control and go-around; Twice for loooong flares which would have resulted in a touch down outside the TD zone; Once for a looong flare which touched down just inside the TD zone but because they still had power on they bounced!
I'm talking about a 30 ton turboprop (Dash 8 Q400) with not very good brakes but I think the same principal can and should be applied to ANY aeroplane and any runway.
We fly into a range of airports with strip lengths varying from 1100m to 4000m. Now, with 4000m to play with you can get away with this technique, it's still not right though. The worrying thing is when you try the same technique, out of habit, into a shorter strip which I believe is what you're alluding to in your last post. You have to land in the touch down zone or the P45 will be looming over the horizon just behind the hedge.
To the original poster. Don't be lured into the fact that a good landing is a smooth one. A good landing is at the right speed in the right place. There are 2 principal reasons for this:
A. At the right speed you will stop in a shorter distance.
B. The aeroplane will stop much better using the brakes. So extending the flare, in an attempt to touch down smoothly, is reducing the effectiveness of your stopping ability and reducing the amount of room you have to stop.
Should anything go wrong, like a brake failure for instance, you will have given yourself the best chance you can. Whereas a long, fast but smooth landing will have drastically reduced your safety margins and increased the potential for damage to you and your aeroplane...but hey it WAS a good landing wasn't it?!
A perfect landing is at the right speed, in the right place and it's a Fonz (smooth greaser!) but they rarely happen, unless you fly a 146, much to the chagrin of many a pilot around the world.
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Yep, I agree with that.
The perfect landing on 2000 yards of runway in a C150 may be a beautifully held off "kiss the tarmac, squeeker". However, try that on a short strip and the dent in the far hedge may slightly detract from that perfect touchdown!
SS
The perfect landing on 2000 yards of runway in a C150 may be a beautifully held off "kiss the tarmac, squeeker". However, try that on a short strip and the dent in the far hedge may slightly detract from that perfect touchdown!
SS
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Interesting thread, I'm not sure how to make a good landing, but I do know how to make a bad one.
1 Flare too high at 10ft then push too much & wheelbarrow it in.
2 Peddle the rudder about & end up drifting sideways.
I went solo on Friday & did a greaser, I think it was self preservation that kicked in, I'm quite sure it wasn't me.
1 Flare too high at 10ft then push too much & wheelbarrow it in.
2 Peddle the rudder about & end up drifting sideways.
I went solo on Friday & did a greaser, I think it was self preservation that kicked in, I'm quite sure it wasn't me.
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Lots has been said on here. I'll add just a little - as a humble PA28 pilot.
This plane flies like an airliner. How many consistent landings have you experienced as a PAX in the back of a 737/A320 etc? I remember sitting in the jump seat of a 737 one night, going into LHR. After a relatively heavy landing, during which several overhead locker doors apparently opened in the cabin, the captain turned to me as we turned back on the taxyway and said 'The good thing about heading back this way [the opposite direction to landing] is that we can watch everyone else stuff it up!'.
The instructors at my flying club are mostly retired airline ATPLs with many many years of experience. Their landings in the PA28 show a degree of consistency, but are far from 100% consistent. The best advice one gave me one day was: work the throttle, keep on top of the speed and approach path, and keep working for the landing. It might fly like an airliner, but it doesn't have the inertia, so you have to keep adjusting [small adjustments - if it's a large one - go around], again and again.
Don't be too hard on yourself. As you gain experience, sometimes you will grease it on, sometimes you will land harder and sometimes you will bounce a little. If you bounce a lot, go around. If you are running out of room, go around. Either way, the incidence of messing it up will become less and less, but there will always be that one. I say again 'go around'!
HH
This plane flies like an airliner. How many consistent landings have you experienced as a PAX in the back of a 737/A320 etc? I remember sitting in the jump seat of a 737 one night, going into LHR. After a relatively heavy landing, during which several overhead locker doors apparently opened in the cabin, the captain turned to me as we turned back on the taxyway and said 'The good thing about heading back this way [the opposite direction to landing] is that we can watch everyone else stuff it up!'.
The instructors at my flying club are mostly retired airline ATPLs with many many years of experience. Their landings in the PA28 show a degree of consistency, but are far from 100% consistent. The best advice one gave me one day was: work the throttle, keep on top of the speed and approach path, and keep working for the landing. It might fly like an airliner, but it doesn't have the inertia, so you have to keep adjusting [small adjustments - if it's a large one - go around], again and again.
Don't be too hard on yourself. As you gain experience, sometimes you will grease it on, sometimes you will land harder and sometimes you will bounce a little. If you bounce a lot, go around. If you are running out of room, go around. Either way, the incidence of messing it up will become less and less, but there will always be that one. I say again 'go around'!
HH
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Surely we're looking for safe, not smooth? All this unnessecary holdoff stuff is just going to let you float forever.
Technique? I'm a lowly student, but the easiest way for me is thus:
1. Stable approach
2. Pick aimpoint on runway.
3. Slide eyes down to far end of runway on short final (for peripheral vision)
4. Hold everything until the picture gets to eye-height.
5. Throttle idle, hold pitch attitude and wait for the squeak and rumble.
Easy enough
NB: I can't stress peripheral vision enough. Altitude is not really relevant, but glidepath is.
Technique? I'm a lowly student, but the easiest way for me is thus:
1. Stable approach
2. Pick aimpoint on runway.
3. Slide eyes down to far end of runway on short final (for peripheral vision)
4. Hold everything until the picture gets to eye-height.
5. Throttle idle, hold pitch attitude and wait for the squeak and rumble.
Easy enough
NB: I can't stress peripheral vision enough. Altitude is not really relevant, but glidepath is.
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I have never really understood this preoccupation with landings. While I realise they are a necessity once each flight, the statistics show that they are the second most dangerous and first 'most often' phase of flight where things can go wrong. As such I practise a maximum of one landing per flight and count it as extremely successful if I don't have to fix anything after, (although I am often told by the peanut gallery that I actually do two or even three landings per flight.)
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To me though, the perfect landings are the landings I've done and really felt comfortable. I beleive that there are no better landings than the landings you do. Bring that plane down safely and that it. I took a very good friend of mine who is just finising his PPL training for a ride and he said "boy, your landings are really good". I personally strive for the stall-down landing.
WP
WP
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Amongst others:
1. Fly the correct speed. Ignore the well intentioned numbers mentioned above. Look in the books for the stall speed in landing config. and execute the final approach at that speed, times 1.3. The ASI will give a clue at Max Landing weight in so much that the bottom of the white arc will be the stall speed in landing config.
2. Trim the plane.
3. Don't mess about too much with the attitude or power. Try and leave them constant until they actually need altering.
4. When you flare, look at the far end of the strip. Let your brain do the flaring, autonomously.
5. Finger tip pressure on the control column, no white knuckles!
6. Any landing in the right place at the right speed (right way up) without too much of wallop is a brilliant landing. Greasy landings done at high speed or too low a speed and/or in the wrong place are those performed by w
ers.
Have fun practicing!
PM
1. Fly the correct speed. Ignore the well intentioned numbers mentioned above. Look in the books for the stall speed in landing config. and execute the final approach at that speed, times 1.3. The ASI will give a clue at Max Landing weight in so much that the bottom of the white arc will be the stall speed in landing config.
2. Trim the plane.
3. Don't mess about too much with the attitude or power. Try and leave them constant until they actually need altering.
4. When you flare, look at the far end of the strip. Let your brain do the flaring, autonomously.
5. Finger tip pressure on the control column, no white knuckles!
6. Any landing in the right place at the right speed (right way up) without too much of wallop is a brilliant landing. Greasy landings done at high speed or too low a speed and/or in the wrong place are those performed by w
ers.Have fun practicing!
PM
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