Panic today

[pilotho]

first time i took passengers up and i managed to end up getting lost...

panic sets in and i swear, the sensation of being lost is definetly frightening!

i managed to keep calm and contacted doncaster for position fix and the ATCO was definetly a great help!

i am sure i got lost because i didnt follow my flight plan, started to turn off track half way down it, i really dont know why but i always doubt my flightplans when i am sure they are right?!

anyway, so glad i had the FRTOL otherwise i would have been abit screwed!

[gcolyer]

I took my first passenger to see his realatives not far from Durham. Half way over the pennines (coming from the isle of man) i got sick and had to puke my guts up. I had to give my PAX a split second lesson on straight and level flight. The only available recepticle for pukeing was my headset bag!!

The return journey was even worse. Halfway over the pennines again I caught in a blizzard. I was at 2000 feet just skimming the freezining level. I could not go any lower as the peaks were higher than me. I decided to do a 180 and head for Duhram, at which point the snow was so bad i could not see the prop. My next decision was climb, bad choice as i had to go through the freezing level. But i thought that would be better than fly zero vis in the pennines. I never actualy managed to get above the snow storm. Then the next incident occured....my VOR failed. i was tracking that to Durahm. I then asked Durham to vector me..they refused to because i was not in their airspace. They told me to try Teeside. Teeside were great and offered me vectors immidaitley and asked if i needed help. Being that I only had 52.5 hours at the time I was a little sweaty to say the least. The hard part was to land, the vis was starting to get a bit better but only about 1k if that. Teeside vectored me right on to the runway. I was visual with the threshold at 460ft.

The hardest thing of all was trusting the instruments and not what my body was sensing.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Just get a GPS. (See the other thread.)

[gcolyer]

QDM,

I agree and disagree.

I am glad I never had a GPS at the time. I was a newly qualified pilot on his first proper flight. I got caught in a bad situation and managed to get out of it with the help of Teeside and my training. Having done that i am happy in the knowledge that i can do it (even under pressure) without a GPS.

I think it is to easy for people to get hold of a GPS and rely on that...you even see people in cars doing. I mean see the news the other day. A coach driver apperntly ended up in a field (literlaly) because a GPS told him to turn..i must admit that is extreme and the driver must have been a right spaz to have turned in to a field, but it does go to show people really do rely on them.

How many newly qualifed pilots actualy fly without a GPS anyway?

[Whirlybird]

It's perfectly possible to have a GPS but only use it when you really need to - in emergencies or when you're overloaded or under stress. I've been doing that for years. I love map and compass nav, but I wouldn't be without my GPS for marginal weather situations, and certainly if I was feeling ill I'd use it. You can misuse anything, but you don't have to - it's your choice.

[S-Works]

Oh god here we go again the eternal debate about how the map and stopwatch should be the "primary" nav and the GPS only there for emergency use.....

Buy a GPS, learn to use it properly, draw your lines on a map and do a PLOG and never get lost again.

The I only use a GPS as a backup to the wonderfull map and stop watch brigade should be shot at dawn.............

[Whirlybird]

bose-x,

Calm down. "Perfectly possible" does not equal "should". I like map and compass nav. I'm funny that way. I don't tell you what to do. And I won't get lost close to where you're following your little GPS line, so don't waste bullets on me; save the money for your horribly expensive GPS batteries.

[Wile E. Coyote]

If it all starts to go wrong, talk to ATC... they are there for YOU.

Never forget, 121.5 is your friend.... and if you've never talked to D+D, find a quiet place you know well (I used Greenham Common once the USAF had left), orbit over it and call them for a training fix. If they are busy they'll tell you, but almost always they'll confirm your position and be glad of the call. It's good practice for them (although they don't need it...) and good experience for the pilot.

And if you are lost....er... uncertain of position... do let them know!

[Chesty Morgan]

The trouble with GPS is you can get lazy and lose the necessary skills required for map and compass nav. I see it all the time with my FO's who rely too much on our FMS. Ask 'em to navigate with a chart or even VOR's and they get completely lost. Don't even bother trying to ask them to fly a departure using raw data! Ask them where they would go if it all went quiet and they're straight into the magic box trying to find out where they are! What happened to navigating and looking out of the window?

At the end of the day use what you feel most comfortable with but always maintain those basic skills because you WILL need them one day. How often does a map go wrong or the battery goes flat?

When the turds hit the turbines I'd give you 10-1 that Whirls will sort out the situation much more efficiently than someone who has become too reliant on an electronic gizmo. RUBBISH IN RUBBISH OUT.

Soldier on Whirls there aren't many of us left

Edit: All very well Wile. E. Until you have aradio failure. Just something to consider.

[swervin'mervin]

Get in there Bose-X! I'm with you on this one....I did try the map and compass thing once at work but the pax were very disappointed that the Paris flight was cancelled because I was unable to follow the Motorway to dover to get us over the channel due to poor viz. Only joking guys lighten up! All navigation equipment available to you should be used if you ask me. The again you probably wont ask me again......

[Kengineer-130]

being a massivley experienced pilot of 75.3 hrs , I have to say I was absolutly amazed during my training about how accurate stopwatch and visual navigation was 9/10 I was hitting my marks within 15-30 secs of my planned time, and if I was more than 1 min out I would start to worry.. Not bad for an old C-150 using data from the handbooks that were made before I was born I know it sounds very old fashioned, but as my instructor at the time taught me, if you have a decent flight plan and a few diversion airfields lined up and planned before you fly, it is SOOOOO easy follow, and removes a lot of stress... How many accident/incident reports do you see that have the same factors in? , "Ran out of fuel", "poor or no Preflight Planning!" etc etc? All simple stuff that gets ignored at peoples peril
Don't get me wrong, I am 26 so in no way a technophobe, and I can clearly see the undoubtedly HUGE advantages of GPS, moving maps etc, but IMHO surley is is better to treat it as another "Layer" to your nav armour, using it to cross check your visual/ stopwatch/VOR/DME Nav? that way if you have made a mess of one part of it, you should catch yourself with the other?

[englishal]

Funny innit....

Damn lazy people relying on GPS who may get into trouble when the sh*t hits the fan....yet it seems to be the ones WITHOUT GPS which seem to be the ones getting lost and hence into trouble.....

make of it what you will

[cblinton@blueyonder.]

With Bose on this!! stop staring at your line and stopwatch and get sorted on a good GPS

That gives you more time to look outside

[QDMQDMQDM]

I am glad I never had a GPS at the time.

gcolyer,

We'll stick it on your gravestone. And maybe we'll add: "He died doing what he believed in."

Good for you.

QDM

[Lister Noble]

Gcolyer,
Well done, I am also a very low hours pilot and reckon you handled the situation with calmness and positive thinking.
I have no personal experience of GPS in aircraft but have used it considerably in small boats.
In the early 90’s we fitted a GPS chart plotter using C-Map, linked to radar with alarm sectors etc, autopilot and wind sensed self steering, with all the relevant displays both in the wheelhouse and down below in the navigation area, all this was Raytheon equipment.
It relieved quite a lot of the work, was great in fog and was a bit like having another crew member on board.
Before this from the early 80’s we used Decca, it was all that was available then but was very useful at the time.
At all times I kept an up to date log and an hourly plot on the chart, half hourly if near any coast or shipping.
I would say that I became reliant on the GPS and radar information but kept my manual navigation stuff accurate and up to date when sailing anywhere.
The only time I had a problem was using the GPS off the East Coast without properly checking my plot; a friend on deck told me that we were really near a sandbank
I looked at the plot and realised I had missed a waypoint and set a course straight over the sandbank!
I expect to buy a small self powered portable GPS for aircraft in the near future, but will always keep an eye on the chart work and eyeball navigation.
Lister

[gcolyer]

Originally Posted by QDMQDMQDM

gcolyer,

We'll stick it on your gravestone. And maybe we'll add: "He died doing what he believed in."

Good for you.

QDM

Cheers. At least my headstones is sorted
If anyone has an old spamcan that needs to be scrapped can you donate it to be my coffin?

Originally Posted by englishal

gcolyer,

Funny innit....

Damn lazy people relying on GPS who may get into trouble when the sh*t hits the fan....yet it seems to be the ones WITHOUT GPS which seem to be the ones getting lost and hence into trouble.....

make of it what you will

QDM

I never got lost. I puked, got caught in a bad snow strom and could not see anything so i could not navigate visualy, no IMC or IR just 50 odd hours. Thought i would track a VOR out of it but the instrument failed.

Even so would a GPS really have sorted me out?

Newly qualified
Never used a GPS
Never flown in IMC (a few hours under the hood)
2000 in the pennines (freezing level just above)
Trying to get to grips with spatial disorientation
Worrying about ice
Worrying about carb ice (even though i had carb heat on, the snow was really belting at met)
Generlay packing my pants

I really dont think it would have helped at the time. However i have since used a GPS and i do like it. But I also thinks it makes you lazy. I tested the the theory. I wrote a flight plan and got my mate whos is a pilot to go over it. We then went and flew the route. I followed the flight plan he followed the GPS, half way i switched the GPS off and asked my mate to tell me where we were on the map. He was about 40 miles of course.

Bottom line is there is no wrong or right when it comes to using a GPS. But there is a wrong or write if you decide not to follow a proper flight plan using traditional methods at the same time. I mean think of all the money you wasted on a whizz wheel, ruler, protractor and southern map for the exam.

Any way this forum has gone slightly wonky. It was about some chaps panic flight with his first PAX. So I thought I would let him know he is not alone by telling my first pax flight.

Anyone have a nightmare with flight with PAX, especially their first PAX flight.

[High Wing Drifter]

My perception of DR matches Kengineer's. However, I don't agree that GPS is another tool. I suspect that a specific GPS unit must be either good enough to be a complete replacement for a line on a chart or else GPS just adds to the list of things to do, which I would consider defeats the point of it.

I hasten to add this is from somebody with much less experience of GPS than DR!

[S-Works]

Originally Posted by Whirlybird

bose-x,
Calm down. "Perfectly possible" does not equal "should". I like map and compass nav. I'm funny that way. I don't tell you what to do. And I won't get lost close to where you're following your little GPS line, so don't waste bullets on me; save the money for your horribly expensive GPS batteries.

Actually the 296 is mains powered and the GNS430 is Panel mount......

As far as GPS making you lazy.... Well I flew around with GPS for the best part of 2000hrs and managed to do both the IR and the CPL in minimum hours with a first time pass. The CPL is pure Plog and stopwatch and requires a much greater accuracy then you will ever achieve at PPL level.

We have modern tools available to us and we should use them. I use GPS all the time especially airways flying but it does not stop me drawing a line on a map and doing a PLOG. In fact for IFR flying having a PLOG is essential to manage cockpit workload. I am just a bit more enlightened than some it seems.

What bothers me is the people who try to positivly dissuade people fom the use of GPS bangin on about how much better the map and stop watch is.

Listen up people, a map and stopwatch is not better than modern avionics even in the hands of a skilled navigator. It is a good base line navigation method and there is no reason not to supplement it with other tools.

Lazy..... Lets put out a bet, one of you map and stopwatch addicts can come and fly with me ( I will collect from anywhere in reason) and without GPS see if you can get me lost. £50 and some free flying in it for you.....

[formationfoto]

Well what would life be like if we didnt have those topics that kept coming back over and over again?.

Should owners of dogs be forced to pick up their **** (the dogs not the owners)?

Should we use GPS?

Personally part of the fun of flying (and the challenge) is to navigate by eye, time, and a line on the map. Dead reckoning most of the way. I do, however sometimes use aircraft to get somewhere rather than just having fun. Here I call on whatever aids I can get hold of - including gps. Conscious of the possibility that I might lose power or signal (gps or vor) I also utilise my well practiced mental nav skills to keep alert to my position.

As with any technology use (within the limits of the system), and have a fallback. Make sure that the fallback is well practiced.

[wombat13]

Flew last week. Had the plan & lines on map (I really do love that part of the prep), gps, ndb & vor all set up. Truth is I only really looked at the map once or twice, the ndb once (inbound to my destination field) and enjoyed a relaxing flight in the full knowledge the others were prepared and ready should the need arise.

I got lost during my GST in March 2005 (TUOMP in CAVOK ......), which was rather embarrassing. In the 150 hours of flying since, from the western australian desert (where there are no landmarks worth talking about) to the great outdoors of Minnesota and plenty of time here in Blighty, I can say hand on heart that I have not been lost, nor TUOMP. Sure there have been times when I have looked out the window and not been sure, used the VOR and NBD for a fix and yes, pulled the cover of the GPS. But within two minutes I have always been sure of where I am.

These incidents are now few and far between, hence my comment above that I have a long hard look at the map before I go and start the watch - not using any of the other aids.

But until I decide different, they will be there in reserve.

The Wombat