Class D crossings!

[pistongone]

I was just wondering about your experiences with Class D transit clearances?
Zones to definitely avoid when planning your trips!
To start this off i would like to say Stanstead is absolutely a no go zone. Likewise Manchester. Luton good, as is Thames. What are your experiences?

[hobbit1983]

Bristol were great, no probs at all. Although they did ask me to speak slower! (first time across Class D, I must admit to a being a tad nervous)

[big.al]

I've never yet been refused a transit by East Mids who are one of the most friendly and helpful ATC units I've come across. Well done guys & girls!

I've only ever tried to go through Solent zone on two occasions - on the first they were helpful and accommodating at FL40 right over the top of SAM, whereas on the second they flatly refused me ANY transit and basically said go away. There may well have been genuine workload reasons for this but the frequency was far from busy and another VFR transit was granted to someone else just 2 mins. later on a similar track. I routed around and below their zone to east and they dumped me the moment I hit the coastline.

[Choxolate]

Always found Bournemouth very helpful and only once been refused when loads were very high.

Southampton (Solent) also OK but tend to be a bit curt - need to get your radio call(s) planned in advance so you can be concise and accurate.

Also make sure you LISTEN for their responses - first few times I was so relieved to have got my call right that I didn't listen to the response properly.

I always use the mnemonic TRPACER when asked to "Pass your message"

Type, Route, Position, Altitude, Condition (eg VFR), Estimate (next turning point or zone boundary), Request (eg. FIS and Zone Transit)

Hope this helps

[plaa343]

I have only ever been refused Class D crossing once, about three years ago by Brize Norton as they had an air display of some sort at the time, which is fair enough.

An ATCO friend of mine has often said that the quality of RT received, with its competence implications, has a lot to do with the granting of Class D airspace crossings (in addition to the usual controller workload and traffic density.) If you sound confident with a clearly stated route and set of intentions you are far more likely to be cleared through.

Use any pneumonic that helps you - variations on PHACER are the most common. A standard call for me would normally be:

A/C: "Brize Zone, XXXX, request zone crossing N - S"
ATC: "XXXX, Brize Zone, Pass your details"
A/C: "XXXX is a T67 Firefly, 2 POB, 5nm North of (VRP) squarking XXXX, Heading 182, FL40, VFR Navex, Routing Direct VRP to VRP, Estimate zone boundary at XX, request zone crossing at FL40"
ATC: "XXXX squark IDENT"
A/C: "Squarking IDENT XXXX"
ATC: "XXXX Identified, Flight Information Service, cleared cross the Brize Zone at FL40, report clear of the zone"


plaa343

[scooter boy]

class D transit

Personally I have never had a problem except once or twice when controllers have been very busy.
I regularly cross Birmingham, East Midlands, Bristol ATZs and St Mawgan MATZ.

Most controllers most of the time will try to get you through,

SB

[tmmorris]

Brize are great, but I'm amazed how many pilots call for crossing on 124.275 (the Brize Radar (LARS) frequency) instead of 119.0 (Brize Zone). It's perfectly clear on the half-mil chart - the controlling frequency is printed exactly where it usually is... As a result the poor Brize controllers really need a prerecorded message 'For Zone Transit contact Brize Zone 119.0'.

Tim

[pistongone]

All good info so far, i dont get down south much these days but when i do i will hope to recieve the help all of you seem to have had. Totally agree with the RT procedure line, good RT more likely to get clearance! So far though, no one has mentioned my two favourite no go zones, Manchester and Stanstead! Both of which i fly close to often and NEVER have been cleared through Manchester and only once through Stanstead. That one was in a C150 out of Lt Gransden and they asked us to climb to 4500' on the QNH to cross the runway We blagged it by going mode "A" and crossed at about 3700' and were well clear of anything at that height. Heathrow have cleared me many more times than that, so if we are talking work load then surely these guy's have the heaviest? I've had the Ascot Burnham thousand foot run and cut a big chunk off the S.E Corner on my way to Bembridge out of Stapleford. Luton only refused once, and infact it wasnt so much a refusal as a stand by. But i could hear they were having trouble with a newby controller and so decided to go the long way round. Come to think of it, Liverpool have always been good when ever i have called them. Any ATCO's From MCR or STD reading, maybe you could explain the reluctance to clear us through safe flying one and all.

[moose2]

Originally Posted by tmmorris

Brize are great, but I'm amazed how many pilots call for crossing on 124.275 (the Brize Radar (LARS) frequency) instead of 119.0 (Brize Zone). It's perfectly clear on the half-mil chart - the controlling frequency is printed exactly where it usually is... As a result the poor Brize controllers really need a prerecorded message 'For Zone Transit contact Brize Zone 119.0'.

Because on the frequency card that comes with the map it has a little astrix by Brize saying for initial contact use LARS frequency (or something similar). I nearly did the same yesterday but requested a handover from Lyneham first who then told me to contact Brize on 119.0

[pumper_bob]

Must agree that Manchester never oblige. I was at Barton and asked the control room if it was worth phoning before hand for a clearance as i was going Soth East and dont particularly like the 1200 foot corridor. The man who knew all that sort of thing, you know the one who is allways on hand at any airfield?, said that even if they did give a clearance(which is unlikely) they would keep you orbiting for half an hour or so before giving you crossing permission therby loosing the POTENTIAL time saving of not using the low level route! On the plus side Cardiff, and Bristol have allways obliged in my experience. Personally i cant see what their problem is, if you transit abeam the upwind end of active runway at say 2-3000'? What say you all?

[DFC]

Originally Posted by pistongone

...... and only once through Stanstead. That one was in a C150 out of Lt Gransden and they asked us to climb to 4500' on the QNH to cross the runway We blagged it by going mode "A" and crossed at about 3700' and were well clear of anything at that height.

So you intentionally did not comply with an ATC clearance and removed the most important piece of information available to ATC and other aircraft in that airspace for preventing collisions.

and

You wonder why ATC in some places are reluctant to give your type of pilot a zone transit?

Could it be that many ATC think private pilot = idiot who will not comply with the clearance and cause problems?

You simply give them more reason to think that!

Regards,

DFC

[Roffa]

Originally Posted by pistongone

NEVER have been cleared through Manchester and only once through Stanstead. That one was in a C150 out of Lt Gransden and they asked us to climb to 4500' on the QNH to cross the runway We blagged it by going mode "A" and crossed at about 3700' and were well clear of anything at that height. Heathrow have cleared me many more times than that, so if we are talking work load then surely these guy's have the heaviest?

For once I find myself in agreement with DFC!

I also find it hard to believe that you'd be offered the clearance you say you were for various reasons including that we don't use 500ft levels like that and you're up in Class A (there was an IR on board?) there and getting in the way of all the departure routes.

But hey, whatever...

Bear in mind that for Heathrow there is also a dedicated frequency for traffic looking to transit the Zone, unlike at the other airports where it is done on the approach frequency.

[FlyingForFun]

i would like to say.... absolutely a no go zone.... Manchester

NEVER have been cleared through Manchester

I wonder why my experiences are so different? I've always found Manchester very quick to say No if they are too busy, but very helpful when they are not.

Two examples (and I think I've described both of these on these forums before):

The first was a trial lesson student who wanted to fly over his house, very close to the edge of the Manchester zone. I called up Manchester to tell them I'd be operating close to, but outside, their zone, and they immediately gave me a squawk and cleared me into the zone if I needed it, even though I hadn't asked for it.

The second was another trial lesson student. This one pointed on the map to where his house was, and it was inside Manchester's zone. I explained to him that I'd try to let him fly over his house, but because it's so close to Manchester airport, ATC might not allow it. He was happy with that, so off we went.

Approaching the zone, I called them up on what sounded like a quiet frequency, and requested to "general handle inside your zone for two minutese, overhead [can't remember the name of the town]". There was a long pause before the controller replied "Why exactly do you need to general handle in my zone?"

Some quick thinking and smooth talking was required. "My passenger would like to photograph his house if you have no traffic to affect, but if it's not convenient it's no problem, we can remain clear". The controller then gave me a squawk, and told me to "remain clear of controlled airspace initially, but report approaching your site, you can expect to be cleared into controlled airspace to circle your passengers house once and only once"!

And that should have been the end of the story - except that en-route to where I thought my passenger's house was he actually spotted his house, nowhere near where he'd pointed to on the chart, and well outside controlled airspace. So I then had to call the controller again, thank him very much, apologise for the inconvenience, and tell him that I'd be remaining clear after all....!

So yes, it definitely can be done.

FFF
-----------------

[pistongone]

Its quite a while since i flew the C150 out of Lt Gransden, but i am sure it was either 4500 or it may have been 4000, anything less and we wouldnt have had trouble reaching the level. But, DFC, it was definitely a clearance of that order. Just for the record, we left Gransden and were heading for Southend, tracking about 140deg at 1500' on the QNH. We requested and were given a clearnace, we had about 5 miles to run when we were given the clearance which meant we had to climb 3000' in 5 miles, which would mean a rate of asscent in the order of 1000ft/min- 2 blokes and an old club 150(as declared on initial contact with the ATSU) Surely anyone in the aviation business would know that was a tall(excuse the punn) order!! Now i allways run down the corridor @2000' and drop 800' going into the stubaccross North Weald. I wouldnt say i was an idiot, i would say letting someone into your airspace and then asking them to do something which was nigh on impossible was the stupid course of action! We declared that level was going to be a push and were told to continue We even asked if they would like us to orbit up to altitude before crossing the runway, which was not acceptable so you tell what you would have done? Lastly, i had my instructor with me so we had IR capabilities if required.

[PPRuNe Radar]

If you pretended to cross at the assigned altitude and didn't report that you actually weren't, then you're still an idiot in my book. ATC will be using that information to clear other aircraft safely above but also below you.

If you get what you call a 'stupid' clearance which you can't comply with, then it's up to you as the pilot to advise ATC you are unable to accept it, and negotiate a revised clearance.

DFC has it spot on. Pilots who do things like this ruin it for everyone else.

[pistongone]

I see your point Radar, but we did advise we couldnt make the level, hence the offer to orbit. We kept the controller informed of our flight status, and were told to continue even though we said we wouldnt reach the assigned level. Looking back on it i admit it was a stupid thing to do, to turn the Transponder to mode "A". Actually, we didnt break any rules as the controller told us to continue, knowing we wouldnt make the level in time.

[S-Works]

Originally Posted by pistongone

, i had my instructor with me so we had IR capabilities if required.

For the first time ever I find my self agreeing with DFC.....

Having your Instructor on board makes it even worse and I would pretty much guarantee in a clapped out club 150 you did not have "IFR capability". Unless of course it had been fitted with 2 alts, ADF and FM Immune equipment?

It is little wonder GA Pilots get such a bad rap if they think it is acceptable to "blag it" around controlled airspace.

As far as airspace is concerned I do think that they type fo metal you are flying does tend to influence the availability of a crossing. I have been refused crossings on low traffic days in the 152 and been given them without problem on high traffic days when whizzing accross in large multi engined metal.

Stanstead are notorious for being uncooperative as are Southampton but most other places I rarely have a problem. At 400hrs a year on private flights I get a pretty good exposure to zone crossing. Allthough these days I tend to go everywhere by airway!

[OVC002]

If some can all get over the self righteous, unjustified, posturing over pistongone, for following his clearance, we might get back to the point of the thread. To wit:

Why does any class D zone in the UK feel justified in refusing a transit?

Nowhere in Europe gets even close to LAX, yet VFR is whizzing around enough to make your head spin. Both through the corridor and vectored through the Class B.

I have asked the same question everywhere I can think of and I am genuinely eager to understand the reason.

The silence, however leads me to think that the answer is likely to be along the lines of:

"We don't want the hassle. OK."

[gcolyer]

I have never been refused. I regulalrly (well did until July) transited Liverpool, Manchester or Belfast. Now and again Dublin or East Mids. And not once was I refused. I have had to hold outside the class D for a few minutes and had to accept vectors through the airspace.

I usualy give them an early call as possible. Liverpool have been the best for me even during peak Easyjet hours closely followed by Belfast. East Mids have given me the biggest run about as has Dublin

[pheeel]

Durham Tees were very helpful, despite refering to us as a microlight! (were in a motorglider). They didn't have any problem with the fact we didn't have a transponder and with my dodgy RT!