Speculating about accidents on this and other Sites (Merged again)
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Speculating about accidents on this and other Sites (Merged again)
Originally Posted by WR
This kind of nonsense reporting by the BBC does no one any good. His family must be going through hell enough without having to adjust for this distasteful and objectionable 'reporting' by our 'state' broadcaster.
That BBC trash really is an appalling report. We don't know the circumstances of this accident yet so what I say below is generic and in no way related to yesterday's tragedy, but looking back to other tragedies the same stuff is regurgitated. Mil pilot in a mid-air collision bangs out immediatley (it's that or die) and the media persist in this 'our hero wrestled with the controls to avoid an orphanage' rubbish. Light aircraft spins in off an aeros manouvre, no possible action by the pilot can affect the outcome once it had spun other than to un-spin it (which doesn't happen). Doesn't stop the ignorant media from churning out the 'heroic' bit, though.
Does it help the berieved? I can't see how, especially as they will at some stage know pretty much what really happened.
Why are our media so awful?
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
WR and SSD and others:
Might I suggest that you read the item on the BBC website? The paragraphs in question were not invented by the BBC, they are quotes from East of England Ambulance Service spokesman Murray Macgregor.
Would you like to say to him in person that he is "ignorant" and was speaking "rubbish"?
If there has been anything "trashy", "distasteful" or "lazy" it has been on your side, not theirs.
I am rarely angered by what I have come across on these forums over the years, but you two have succeeded.
I will not discuss this further on this thread, as I feel you have dragged it low enough as it is - what you do is entirely up to you.
SD
Might I suggest that you read the item on the BBC website? The paragraphs in question were not invented by the BBC, they are quotes from East of England Ambulance Service spokesman Murray Macgregor.
Would you like to say to him in person that he is "ignorant" and was speaking "rubbish"?
If there has been anything "trashy", "distasteful" or "lazy" it has been on your side, not theirs.
I am rarely angered by what I have come across on these forums over the years, but you two have succeeded.
I will not discuss this further on this thread, as I feel you have dragged it low enough as it is - what you do is entirely up to you.
SD
The Original Whirly
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Everyone who has posted is shocked and appalled by this accident. That's the case with every fatality, but perhaps more so with this one owing to the age of the pilot and the specific circumstances. And people react to that kind of thing differently - some feel the need to offer condolences, some speculate as to what happened, some get angry. All of those are perfectly normal reactions to a horrific event. Let's accept that and not get into arguments about what was said by whom and whether it was appropriate or inappropriate.
I appreciate this thread being here. I heard yesterday that there had been a fatal accident, but knew no details. I suspect that this thread has, for many of us, simply provided useful information.
And, again I suspect like many, I don't know what else to say, and fear being misunderstood.......
I appreciate this thread being here. I heard yesterday that there had been a fatal accident, but knew no details. I suspect that this thread has, for many of us, simply provided useful information.
And, again I suspect like many, I don't know what else to say, and fear being misunderstood.......
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Lastly, remember that stall speed increases in a decending turn due to reduced power.
At first sight, this looks like an all too common and tragic base to final turn stall/spin accident. Posting incorrect comments about the influences on stall speed does no-one any good, especially as there are some pre-solo stuents reading this. Weight, G, wing configuration changes (flaps, ice, vortex generators, leading edge slots etc.) all influence stall speed. Someone correct me here, but I don't think pulling the power off and descending in a turn does. Power setting and thus propwash over the tail surfaces may influence controllability at the point of stall, but I don't see how it can influence stall speed itself. A high power setting may allow you to fly a wing at low speed with high drag and high lift (i.e. full flap) without stalling, but the power setting itself does not influence the stall speed.
To all pre-solo students, post-solo students and any other pilot who hasn't read it, read Stick and Rudder, by Wolfgang Langewiesche, especially the last chapter, 'The Dangers of the Air' by Leighton Collins. Here is the link, go and buy it now:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0...lance&n=266239
QDM
Originally Posted by QDMQDMQDM
...but the power setting itself does not influence the stall speed.
A
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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As you no doubt know a wing can stall at any speed however the point I was trying to make (and which Andy RR, highlighted) was that power reduces the possibility of a stall. Does a 16 year old student on second solo understand all the Principles of Flight regarding the stall? I know I didn't. Teach them that power in the turn controls airspeed as well as attitude and the potential for a stall decreases. John Farley pointed this out to his instructor in his RAF training days - attitude controls your airpseed but not at 3 feet.
K-I-S-S.
The angle of attack is the datum for a stall. Nose down, decending turn, low power, the high angle of attack is masked by the lower attitude of the aircraft thus making it difficult for a beginner to grasp the concept of increased possibility of stalling and why so many over the years have spun in base turn to final.
VFE.
K-I-S-S.
The angle of attack is the datum for a stall. Nose down, decending turn, low power, the high angle of attack is masked by the lower attitude of the aircraft thus making it difficult for a beginner to grasp the concept of increased possibility of stalling and why so many over the years have spun in base turn to final.
VFE.
Originally Posted by QDMQDMQDM
Sorry, is this true?!
At first sight, this looks like an all too common and tragic base to final turn stall/spin accident. Posting incorrect comments about the influences on stall speed does no-one any good, especially as there are some pre-solo stuents reading this. Weight, G, wing configuration changes (flaps, ice, vortex generators, leading edge slots etc.) all influence stall speed. Someone correct me here, but I don't think pulling the power off and descending in a turn does. Power setting and thus propwash over the tail surfaces may influence controllability at the point of stall, but I don't see how it can influence stall speed itself. A high power setting may allow you to fly a wing at low speed with high drag and high lift (i.e. full flap) without stalling, but the power setting itself does not influence the stall speed.
To all pre-solo students, post-solo students and any other pilot who hasn't read it, read Stick and Rudder, by Wolfgang Langewiesche, especially the last chapter, 'The Dangers of the Air' by Leighton Collins. Here is the link, go and buy it now:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0...lance&n=266239
QDM
At first sight, this looks like an all too common and tragic base to final turn stall/spin accident. Posting incorrect comments about the influences on stall speed does no-one any good, especially as there are some pre-solo stuents reading this. Weight, G, wing configuration changes (flaps, ice, vortex generators, leading edge slots etc.) all influence stall speed. Someone correct me here, but I don't think pulling the power off and descending in a turn does. Power setting and thus propwash over the tail surfaces may influence controllability at the point of stall, but I don't see how it can influence stall speed itself. A high power setting may allow you to fly a wing at low speed with high drag and high lift (i.e. full flap) without stalling, but the power setting itself does not influence the stall speed.
To all pre-solo students, post-solo students and any other pilot who hasn't read it, read Stick and Rudder, by Wolfgang Langewiesche, especially the last chapter, 'The Dangers of the Air' by Leighton Collins. Here is the link, go and buy it now:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0...lance&n=266239
QDM
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The plane obviously stalled and was spinning
I have my opinions on what probably happend and they are most likely the same as nearly all the pilots reading. However i dont think this is the thread to be discussing it on....I think you'll all agree this one is more appropriate
Watch the speed! =
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235608
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I never said that Brian Nicholas said it stalled. I was merely giving my opinion.
Surely the point of a forum is to give opinions, yes???
And saying that it is speculation and drivel, well thats just as bad as "darkening???" the forum.
So should we all give our condolences and shut the thread down, or is there a possiblity of a reasonable discussion??
Surely the point of a forum is to give opinions, yes???
And saying that it is speculation and drivel, well thats just as bad as "darkening???" the forum.
So should we all give our condolences and shut the thread down, or is there a possiblity of a reasonable discussion??
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Sick, sick fire brigade website
Without wanting to sound hypocritical, I just visited the Essex fire brigade website after reading - in sheer horror and disbelief - that pictures of this incident are posted on a website by the aforementioned authority.
The whole idea of posting such filth made my skin crawl.
It is deplorable that they feel the need to publish images of scenes that they attend including plane crashes, house fires, motor vehicle accidents etc., especially considering that fatalities or severe injuries have been sustained in some of those occurrances, not to mention the distress it would cause family, friends or the people involved by publicly displaying images of terrible misfortune for the entire world to gawp at. What on earth are they thinking?
If it is there to serve as some kind of useful visual investigative record, why not make it private and only accessible to the people who need to see it?
Great for sick and twisted rubber-neckers, awful for family and friends.
Essex Fire Brigade, you should be ashamed.
Tragic news. Poor lad.
The whole idea of posting such filth made my skin crawl.
It is deplorable that they feel the need to publish images of scenes that they attend including plane crashes, house fires, motor vehicle accidents etc., especially considering that fatalities or severe injuries have been sustained in some of those occurrances, not to mention the distress it would cause family, friends or the people involved by publicly displaying images of terrible misfortune for the entire world to gawp at. What on earth are they thinking?
If it is there to serve as some kind of useful visual investigative record, why not make it private and only accessible to the people who need to see it?
Great for sick and twisted rubber-neckers, awful for family and friends.
Essex Fire Brigade, you should be ashamed.
Tragic news. Poor lad.
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i can see why your upset about this, however if you think on terms like this then what right do any website/media coverage have to post pictures of tragic events? Also what about aircraft disaster archives with voice recordings that you can listen to and read up on? What about 9/11? video coverage, is that out right sick?
However i can see where your coming from tho!
R.I.P friend
However i can see where your coming from tho!
R.I.P friend
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Maybe you're missing my point Felix. Yes, public exposure of images and film archive of such tragic events by the media etc. is bad enough... but the emergency services?
They join in to complain about traffic bottlenecks on the opposing carriageway after an RTA, thanks to motorists slowing down to take a good long look, yet they emblazon their website with such images as if to promote the practice of rubber-necking? Come on.
As someone who's had to climb over a dead relative in order to exit a vehicle involved in an RTA, I don't think I would've appreciated seeing images of the event on a website that all and sundry could see, especially courtesy of the fire and ambulance service who came to our rescue.
I'm sure the family, friends and FI to this poor 16yr old will feel exactly the same way. They all deserve better. Sorry for going off-topic.
They join in to complain about traffic bottlenecks on the opposing carriageway after an RTA, thanks to motorists slowing down to take a good long look, yet they emblazon their website with such images as if to promote the practice of rubber-necking? Come on.
As someone who's had to climb over a dead relative in order to exit a vehicle involved in an RTA, I don't think I would've appreciated seeing images of the event on a website that all and sundry could see, especially courtesy of the fire and ambulance service who came to our rescue.
I'm sure the family, friends and FI to this poor 16yr old will feel exactly the same way. They all deserve better. Sorry for going off-topic.
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Speculating about accidents on this and other Sites
I have been lurking and using this and other aviation bulletin boards for the last four or five years and without wishing to appear insensitive I find it quite irritating the way that that fatal and/or serious accidents are handled.
There seems to be a majority who almost immediately shun any form of speculation and egotistically demand that we await the findings of the professionals (presumably the AAIB?)
Well, I would like to offer a contrary view in that speculation on boards and forums is GOOD in these cases.
If all accidents were left unreported aside from the obligatory condolonces etc etc then I believe that a valuable opportunity to ram home safety issues is missed. I can say categorically that if I were to ever die in an aircraft accident I would want you all to speculate to your hearts content as long as in the heat of those first emotional days it focused your minds on how I might have killed myself because my dying wish would be that no one else suffer the same fate.
Lets be honest - In flying generally, we have learned everything we know from the mistakes (often tragic) of others. Await the formal AAIB report months down the line and the moment is lost. In my opinion, the dead and the relatives of the deceased would surely prefer the flying community to learn immediately from the mistakes (or otherwise) of the deceased and they certainly will not likely be reading this or any other forum looking for insensitive postings. OK - so facts don't come from speculation but who didn't fly around with an extra good look out after the micro and R22 collision and who isn't thinking that bit harder about base leg turns just at the moment?
I believe that speculation about safety matters is best delivered hot and emotional and that is what makes us humans digest it. It focuses our mind in the present and prevents us slipping into complacency and I for one will be just that little more cautious turning base leg to final for this next few weeks even though I have no cause or reason to do this other than the so called 'insensitive' postings made on another thread.
There seems to be a majority who almost immediately shun any form of speculation and egotistically demand that we await the findings of the professionals (presumably the AAIB?)
Well, I would like to offer a contrary view in that speculation on boards and forums is GOOD in these cases.
If all accidents were left unreported aside from the obligatory condolonces etc etc then I believe that a valuable opportunity to ram home safety issues is missed. I can say categorically that if I were to ever die in an aircraft accident I would want you all to speculate to your hearts content as long as in the heat of those first emotional days it focused your minds on how I might have killed myself because my dying wish would be that no one else suffer the same fate.
Lets be honest - In flying generally, we have learned everything we know from the mistakes (often tragic) of others. Await the formal AAIB report months down the line and the moment is lost. In my opinion, the dead and the relatives of the deceased would surely prefer the flying community to learn immediately from the mistakes (or otherwise) of the deceased and they certainly will not likely be reading this or any other forum looking for insensitive postings. OK - so facts don't come from speculation but who didn't fly around with an extra good look out after the micro and R22 collision and who isn't thinking that bit harder about base leg turns just at the moment?
I believe that speculation about safety matters is best delivered hot and emotional and that is what makes us humans digest it. It focuses our mind in the present and prevents us slipping into complacency and I for one will be just that little more cautious turning base leg to final for this next few weeks even though I have no cause or reason to do this other than the so called 'insensitive' postings made on another thread.
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Fair comment but talking about speculation is by it's own nature subjective and while we can sit here at our desks and guess the cause, the fact remains that until a full report or known cause can be established it could be deemed disrespectfull to those unfortunately departed.
I for one would like to know the cause simply so I can learn, probably much like everyone else, but firmly believe that suggestive attempts at possible failures with either craft or human when facts are few and far between is not only insensitive but really doesn't achieve much. If this is the type of thing people are after then why not start a thread with a made up incident and then get people to comment on the possible issues, much like they do in some of the flight magazines, in far better taste and probably just as constructive without the need to highlight someone's else misfortune..
I fully understand your point, but inlight of recent events personally feel compassion and reflection is better than speculation and uncalled blame.
Interesting point though.
To add;
Just add, and am possibly being hypocritical , but I have found the "Watch your speed thread" very thought provoking and it will certain take something from it, and while it has taken this unfortunate event to raise this thread, I just go back to my point that should it really take events such as this for us to be able to discuss it in such depth? No, but it has..
I for one would like to know the cause simply so I can learn, probably much like everyone else, but firmly believe that suggestive attempts at possible failures with either craft or human when facts are few and far between is not only insensitive but really doesn't achieve much. If this is the type of thing people are after then why not start a thread with a made up incident and then get people to comment on the possible issues, much like they do in some of the flight magazines, in far better taste and probably just as constructive without the need to highlight someone's else misfortune..
I fully understand your point, but inlight of recent events personally feel compassion and reflection is better than speculation and uncalled blame.
Interesting point though.
To add;
Just add, and am possibly being hypocritical , but I have found the "Watch your speed thread" very thought provoking and it will certain take something from it, and while it has taken this unfortunate event to raise this thread, I just go back to my point that should it really take events such as this for us to be able to discuss it in such depth? No, but it has..
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I disagree. There are people who may be hurt (relatives, colleagues, friends, and maybe the aircraft operator) by the inaccurate speculation. Thats why a load of us wait for the AAIB report and can then have a factual discussion.
Now encouraging the AAIB to release information alot faster would be a more valid point IMHO.
Now encouraging the AAIB to release information alot faster would be a more valid point IMHO.
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Originally Posted by littco
Fair comment but talking about speculation is by it's own nature subjective and while we can sit here at our desks and guess the cause, the fact remains that until a full report or known cause can be established it could be deemed disrespectfull to those unfortunately departed.
What should happen in those instances? No lessons learned? No discussion?
They (AAIB) might have a fairly good idea what caused some of these "no cause" accidents but they can't commit those ideas to a report.
Now there are people suggesting we shouldn't discuss them on bulletin boards either.
Great safety initiative guys
Push all discussion about possible accident causes away because you don't like it. If one person checks or does something better because of idle speculation about what might have happened that has to be a good thing.
I agree with tony 100%.
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Tony,
I would suggest unexpected events as well as mistakes. I think the problem you are alluding to is that to second guess the AAIB leads to an inevitible conclusion related only to things we have come across either directly or indirectly so don't actually lead to any new knowledge. The usual speculation is stall, carb ice, lost contol in IMC, etc. All things we already imagine can happen to us. The value of AAIB reports is that they tell us stuff that we didn't even consider.
On the other hand, as IO540 said facetiously in one of the other threads (I paraphrase) "At least we have the CVR and FDR data!" Basically, what he is saying is probably true, the AAIB just end up guessing at the end of the day as they probabaly have very little work with and often nobody is any wiser so why not consider and discuss as and when the opportunity arises.
n flying generally, we have learned everything we know from the mistakes (often tragic) of others.
On the other hand, as IO540 said facetiously in one of the other threads (I paraphrase) "At least we have the CVR and FDR data!" Basically, what he is saying is probably true, the AAIB just end up guessing at the end of the day as they probabaly have very little work with and often nobody is any wiser so why not consider and discuss as and when the opportunity arises.
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 24th Jul 2006 at 19:31.