Spin trainer?
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Spin trainer?
I have heard of aircraft which do not readily spin and those which do not like specific spin recovery procedures but which aircraft is the safest for spin training ? bearing in mind that students do not always take the expected actions
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You're probably better off with something aerobatic, if a student recovers from a spin and pulls up too hard in a util a/c (Non-aero Cessnas, some PA-28s) the wings may pop off, but that's very rare. Maybe an Aerobat?
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Defenitely an acrobatic category a/c. Although a proper spin and spin recovery is no biggie in most spin-certified a/c, as you say, students may handle the airplane very rougly.
Did my spin endorsement for the FAA CFI today. My instructor demonstrated a 3-turn spin with a water bottle, uncapped, on top of the instrument panel of a C152. Didn't even move, although my eyeballs were probably pretty big...
Did my spin endorsement for the FAA CFI today. My instructor demonstrated a 3-turn spin with a water bottle, uncapped, on top of the instrument panel of a C152. Didn't even move, although my eyeballs were probably pretty big...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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It's also worth thinking about what you're planning on doing with your spin training, and whether the aircraft you'll do it in is representative of what you might experience after the training.
For example, the Aerobat has been mentioned here. A great little aeroplane, but like all C152s, it'll recover from the spin with just about any anti-spin control - just a little relaxation on the elevators, and out it pops. A good instructor will try to encourage you to use full anti-spin controls as per the manual's recommended technique, but it's quite hard to convince a student to do this when the easier option works so well. However, on many other types, you won't get away with this kind of slack recovery technique - you really do need full control inputs, so the Aerobat may not teach you the good habits you need to stay safe unless you have a very good instructor.
FFF
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For example, the Aerobat has been mentioned here. A great little aeroplane, but like all C152s, it'll recover from the spin with just about any anti-spin control - just a little relaxation on the elevators, and out it pops. A good instructor will try to encourage you to use full anti-spin controls as per the manual's recommended technique, but it's quite hard to convince a student to do this when the easier option works so well. However, on many other types, you won't get away with this kind of slack recovery technique - you really do need full control inputs, so the Aerobat may not teach you the good habits you need to stay safe unless you have a very good instructor.
FFF
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I've done an hours spin training in a Bulldog 120 (16 hr PPL student).
If you follow FULL spin recovery procedures she comes out sweet as a nut - surprised the hell out of me when she stopped dead in her tracks!!!!
If you follow FULL spin recovery procedures she comes out sweet as a nut - surprised the hell out of me when she stopped dead in her tracks!!!!
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Good spinners :- Bulldog, Chippie, dH82a, PA38 (but do not look back at the tail while you do it
), Beagle Pup.
Poor spinners:- C150/152, Pa28 (both of these will spin but tend to go into a spiral dive instead).
And of course do not spin anything not certified for it!
), Beagle Pup.Poor spinners:- C150/152, Pa28 (both of these will spin but tend to go into a spiral dive instead).
And of course do not spin anything not certified for it!
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foxmoth, how you can say that the PA-38 is a good spin training machine when one of the most heated controversies in light aviation is exactly about the poor spin recovery characteristics and the many accidents it has caused.
I'm unable to bring data or debate on the subject beyond what anyone can google about (that is a lot), just curious to know why did you mentioned this very type that for most people should be in the list for 'advanced brave pilots' only.
I'm unable to bring data or debate on the subject beyond what anyone can google about (that is a lot), just curious to know why did you mentioned this very type that for most people should be in the list for 'advanced brave pilots' only.
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foxmoth, how you can say that the PA-38 is a good spin training machine when one of the most heated controversies in light aviation is exactly about the poor spin recovery characteristics and the many accidents it has caused.
Directly from Gene Beggs titled " Spins in the Pitts Special", you can order the book it is available from the IAC or aviat here : htp://www.aviataircraft.com/new/ps_cover.htm
From Gene Beggs book, page 35, Paragraph 4, title "Piper TomaHawk"
"It (the pa38) had developed a bad reputation in stalls and spins. I put the Tomahawk through a series of upright spins including normal, flat and accelerated. The Tomahawk is an excellent spinning aircraft that recovers beautifully using either the normal or the Emergency Spin Recovery. It Spins so well that I can see how it would be intimidating to a pilot who is aprehensive about stalls and spins. "
He then goes on to dismiss the myth that the tail wags around and the rivets pop out, and nude mermaids singing "Casa Diva" often appear on the cowling after 6 rotations.
I made up that last bit, but I do like Bellini.
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Don't know about "best" spin training aircraft, but I did my first spins on a Decathalon, just after my PPL exam, just to get over the fear of this mysterious "there-be-dragons-and-certain-death" stuff I'd heard about. It was the single best piece of training I ever did because it gave me complete confidence in flying aircraft. I mention this just to reaffirm your deisre do the training - very smart idea! This stuff about "spin avoidance" training is complete nonsense. You learn a lot more about flying, and your own confidence by spinning an airplane than you learn about spinning an airplane.
So, which aircraft? There are probably lots out there that are perfectly suited to it. The only one I would definitely stay away from is the Cessna 152 Aerobat for the reasons mentioned by FFF but also, because it is so stable, it takes such exagerated inputs to get it to spin at all that the entry alone often scares the willies out of first time students.
I've personally spun the Decathalon and Pitts (both S-1 and S-2) and they're both great fun, easy to initiate entry, and easy to get perfect recoveries. But you'll probably be alright in Chippies, Stampes, Bulldogs.
It does also depend on what kind of spin training you're looking for in the first instance - just to do a couple of erect ones to see what everyone talks about? Or are you interested in a full series of erect, inverted, flat, etc? For that kind of stuff, stick to the real aerobatic machines like a Pitts or Extra.
In any case, have a great time and let us know how you get on. Spinning is a blast and an immense confidence builder!
Pitts2112
So, which aircraft? There are probably lots out there that are perfectly suited to it. The only one I would definitely stay away from is the Cessna 152 Aerobat for the reasons mentioned by FFF but also, because it is so stable, it takes such exagerated inputs to get it to spin at all that the entry alone often scares the willies out of first time students.
I've personally spun the Decathalon and Pitts (both S-1 and S-2) and they're both great fun, easy to initiate entry, and easy to get perfect recoveries. But you'll probably be alright in Chippies, Stampes, Bulldogs.
It does also depend on what kind of spin training you're looking for in the first instance - just to do a couple of erect ones to see what everyone talks about? Or are you interested in a full series of erect, inverted, flat, etc? For that kind of stuff, stick to the real aerobatic machines like a Pitts or Extra.
In any case, have a great time and let us know how you get on. Spinning is a blast and an immense confidence builder!
Pitts2112
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Originally Posted by 7gcbc
nude mermaids singing "Casa Diva" often appear on the cowling after 6 rotations.
I made up that last bit, but I do like Bellini.
I made up that last bit, but I do like Bellini.
When I did my PPL spinning was still either in the syllabus or just out but still done. Spent happy summer afternoons spinning the Tomahawk and really getting to enjoy it.
I don't know about "should be in the list for 'advanced brave pilots' only" I had 10 or 15 hours and have always been a complete coward.
I loved the Tomahawk and enjoyed spinning in it, in fact I enjoyed everything that I did in a Tomahawk and personally the only improvement that I could think of would be the six nude mermaids.
I don't know about "should be in the list for 'advanced brave pilots' only" I had 10 or 15 hours and have always been a complete coward.
I loved the Tomahawk and enjoyed spinning in it, in fact I enjoyed everything that I did in a Tomahawk and personally the only improvement that I could think of would be the six nude mermaids.
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Once again, I have no opinion of mine JAFO! I was merely reporting the fact the tomahawk has a reputation to stimulate a discussion here. I appreciate all your comments and look forward to some spinning fun sometime soon, tomahawk or not.
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I've always thought the Tomohawk a lovely little aeroplane, good trainer, and very un-deserving of its dubious reputation (which is based on what exactly?)
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