Question - circuit join

[GroundBound]

You are approaching an airfield (grass - no markings), with two runways forming a cross, 10/28 and 01/19. The active runway is 10.

Gliders are also using the same runway, but powered a/c land and take off to the left of the gliders.

The powered a/c have a left hand circuit, and the gliders a right hand circuit.

You are approaching on a track of 220 – how would you join the circuit?

I think its obvious, but it seems there is some debate - curious to have other views.

GB

[Chilli Monster]

Position outside the circuit to join Downwind Left Hand - there is no other option.

Forget the overhead join - unless you want 3000ft of cable wrapped around you.

Airmanship rules out a crosswind join. Turning across the nose of a glider positioning downwind (a common position as a lot of the flying is teaching circuits) isn't going to make you any friends.

[robin]

No real debate really - stay clear of the gliders and join downwind left for 10

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Yep; same here. Personally, I'd always avoid a straight in approach, whatever your inbound track. Gives no time to see what else is in the circuit and little chance for anyone to see you. Extending downwind is very irritating when straight in traffic suddenly appears off your nose.

[Fournicator]

Just an addition to the previous poster's remarks - I'd probably set up on an extended downwind leg, for the maximum time to pick up the position of other circuit traffic without having to think about my own orientation. Fairly obviously give way to anyone crosswind (yuck, square ccts, ugh! Really would be easier if everyone flew sensible ovals!) before joining the normal downwind position.

[Flybywyre]

Position outside the circuit to join Downwind Left Hand - there is no other option

Yes there is, you are already on an extended base leg (almost) so what's wrong with joining base leg ? (assuming it is not unduly busy)
It all depends on how busy the circuit is, there is no definitive answer. If the circuit is empty, or someone has just reported finals to land and know one else is flying then it would be common sense to join base leg resulting in a safe and expeditious join.

[Lister Noble]

This is interesting.
I am a very low hours PPL,I prefer downwind joins to everything else,even overhead joins.
Having said that nearly all my landings are at my home field.
I don't like straight in's as you don't really get a feel for the airfield or traffic.
Maybe I will change my opinion with more experience?
Lister

[Fournicator]

Flybywyre:
Good point. Does all depend on the type of traffic using the airfield - any likelyhood of non radio ac, how amny in the cct, etc etc.

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by Flybywyre

Yes there is, you are already on an extended base leg (almost) so what's wrong with joining base leg ? (assuming it is not unduly busy)

Very little time to assimilate airfield activity compatred to the downwind join. You don't know how busy it is because the gliders, and tugs if they are there, will be operating non-radio.

Downwind is the safer option when arriving at "mixed mode" sites.

[Flybywyre]

Very little time to assimilate airfield activity compatred to the downwind join

You have exactly the same amount of time. This is assuming that you call up in advance of arriving at the airfield (normal practice)

[rustle]

Originally Posted by Flybywyre

You have exactly the same amount of time. This is assuming that you call up in advance of arriving at the airfield (normal practice)

Not sure how that works.

What response are you expecting from A/G when you call "joining base" other than "roger"?

Joining downwind gives you (more) time to see for yourself what is happening.

[Flybywyre]

The point I am making is that you have exactly the same amount of time to listen out and work out where the other traffic is. As I said previously there is no definitive answer, it all depends on what else, if anything, is going on in the circuit.

[Footless Halls]

Yes, FbW. You have the same time to LISTEN but much less time to LOOK. And gliders will not be using radio in the circuit.

In addition, I don't think it's wise to rely on radio for your information about powered traffic either. I had a memorable experience joining a certain airfield a few weeks ago when the FISO informed me 'there's lots of stuff coming from all directions' and then got my number in the circuit wrong...

I don't blame the guy because I'm the Captain of my a/c, not him. Just to say the downwind join is rather safer in my view.

[Flybywyre]

You have the same time to LISTEN but much less time to LOOK

I don't know how you arrive at that

And gliders will not be using radio in the circuit.

Gliders aren't in the circuit

'there's lots of stuff coming from all directions' and then got my number in the circuit wrong...

so what ??

Just to say the downwind join is rather safer in my view.

Safer than what ?
I'll say it again there is no definitive answer. It all depends on how busy the circuit is. In the example given at the start of this thread, if the circuit is empty then it is perfectly reasonable and sensible to join base leg. A novice PPL reading this could get the impression that the only safe way to join a circuit is downwind. This is clearly not true, there are many ways to join the circuit and with experience you become aware of which way is best for any given circumstances. Having said that we all make mistakes, including myself, which we normally learn from. We also gain experience from unexpected scenarios, such as "positioning out of the circuit to join downwind" and meeting someone head on doing a bomber style circuit as you could do in the opening example given at the start of the thread.
Common sense and good airmanship should prevail.

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by Flybywyre

The point I am making is that you have exactly the same amount of time to listen out and work out where the other traffic is.

How do you listen out for non-radio traffic?

[Flybywyre]

You can't................

[Chilli Monster]

Ahhhhh - so your previous suggestion

Originally Posted by Flybywyre

The point I am making is that you have exactly the same amount of time to listen out and work out where the other traffic is.

Is next to useless Whereas

Originally Posted by Footless Halls

You have the same time to LISTEN but much less time to LOOK.

Looking, and the time to look, would be a much more valuable commodity.

I have no problems with base leg joins at airfields with normal, single type (powered) operations. However, the use of a downwind leg at a gliding site to see and assess what is going on in the landing area beforehand (which is something you wouldn't get by joining base) is a much better idea from an airmanship point of view.

[Flybywyre]

Just for you Chilli Monster ............

I'll say it again there is no definitive answer

What part of that do you not understand ?
Private message me if you want to spare yourself any further embarrassment and I will explain it to you

[Chilli Monster]

Sorry - but you're actually wrong. There IS a definitive answer.

As you've obviously never operated out of a gliding field, where the landing area is shared, then feel free to PM me to save yourself further embarrassment (Adopting the same circuit procedure as the gliders comes into it though - it helps if you can see them proceeding round the circuit)

You may have to wait for your answer though - the nightshift calls with lots of aircraft to play with

[Flybywyre]

"Sorry - but you're actually wrong. There IS a definitive answer".......
"As you've obviously never operated out of a gliding field"

Arrogant and ill-informed statements like the ones above don't help.
You just don't get it do you ..............