VFR Communication
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VFR Communication
Hi everyone.. my very first post..
I did my PPL in States and since the RT is very different there i am struggling abit with RT back here in the UK. Could anyone suggest the best way to improve my RT FAST? Thanks.
I did my PPL in States and since the RT is very different there i am struggling abit with RT back here in the UK. Could anyone suggest the best way to improve my RT FAST? Thanks.
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Chevvron is right - I did all my training at Cranfield and it makes you learn the RT very quickly - it's noticeable how visitors can sometimes struggle with the pace.
I also find listening into a busy radio with a scanner can help.
DW.
I also find listening into a busy radio with a scanner can help.
DW.
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Hey Hawabaaz1, I had exactly the same problem coming home from doing my PPL in Florida, it's initially a nightmare, this is what I did:
1. To start with I bought and read Jeremy Pratt's PPL book on Communications, there's pretty much everything in there.
2. I joined a small flying club at a non controlled airfield and planned for every flight meticulously in terms of RT, i.e. I wrote down and learnt all things I had would have to say. After a few hours of this, you'll get used to it fairly quickly.
3. I got myself an airband scanner and listened to it as much as possible and predicted what the pilot would say back.
4. I flew with a friend who flies in a busy area and did bits of RT with him.
5. Lastly, I asked the instructor checking me out as many questions as I could think of. There's every chance he/she did some of their training in the States so will understand your problem.
I've started flying at a controlled airfield this last year and have had to up my RT a bit. I just did the same stuff as before, basically, lots of exposure and not being afraid of asking the instructors what I thought were simple questions. Definitely daunting as first but you'll convert in no time.
Hope that helps
ZW
1. To start with I bought and read Jeremy Pratt's PPL book on Communications, there's pretty much everything in there.
2. I joined a small flying club at a non controlled airfield and planned for every flight meticulously in terms of RT, i.e. I wrote down and learnt all things I had would have to say. After a few hours of this, you'll get used to it fairly quickly.
3. I got myself an airband scanner and listened to it as much as possible and predicted what the pilot would say back.
4. I flew with a friend who flies in a busy area and did bits of RT with him.
5. Lastly, I asked the instructor checking me out as many questions as I could think of. There's every chance he/she did some of their training in the States so will understand your problem.
I've started flying at a controlled airfield this last year and have had to up my RT a bit. I just did the same stuff as before, basically, lots of exposure and not being afraid of asking the instructors what I thought were simple questions. Definitely daunting as first but you'll convert in no time.
Hope that helps
ZW
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In case you don't already know about it, the CAA's RT guide is here:
CAP 413 RT Manual
This is the official guide to what you need to say. The single most important piece in my opinion, is the reply to "Pass your message". You'll have to use this a lot.
That's where to find the answers. How to learn quickest? I'd suggest finding a pilot buddy if you can, and go flying together. One does the handling, navigation and command decisions, and the other does the radio work. On the return flight, swap around.
This will mean that when you are doing the R/T you'll have more time to think about it, and concentrate on it. You'll take it in much quicker that way.
When flying, you'll have to chance to listen out and hopefully learn a little from someone elses r/t or if not that, then at least from their mistakes!
dp
CAP 413 RT Manual
This is the official guide to what you need to say. The single most important piece in my opinion, is the reply to "Pass your message". You'll have to use this a lot.
That's where to find the answers. How to learn quickest? I'd suggest finding a pilot buddy if you can, and go flying together. One does the handling, navigation and command decisions, and the other does the radio work. On the return flight, swap around.
This will mean that when you are doing the R/T you'll have more time to think about it, and concentrate on it. You'll take it in much quicker that way.
When flying, you'll have to chance to listen out and hopefully learn a little from someone elses r/t or if not that, then at least from their mistakes!
dp
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1. Buy biscuits. plain chocolate for preference.
2. Phone nearby ATC unit & say "I have chocolate biscuits. May I please come & visit?"
3. Visit said ATC unit. See what controllers want. See what pilots give. Don't forget to feed said biscuits to controllers.
Job's a good'un!
2. Phone nearby ATC unit & say "I have chocolate biscuits. May I please come & visit?"
3. Visit said ATC unit. See what controllers want. See what pilots give. Don't forget to feed said biscuits to controllers.
Job's a good'un!
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Thanks alot folks... my first question and so many ppl here with the solutions... this is great :-)
It is funny but the last time i went flying, for a moment, i thought the controller was speaking russain. It can be very discouraging if you havnt got a clue as to what is being said to you. Time to practice. And more practice.
Cheers all.
It is funny but the last time i went flying, for a moment, i thought the controller was speaking russain. It can be very discouraging if you havnt got a clue as to what is being said to you. Time to practice. And more practice.
Cheers all.
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If you can't understand the controller then you need a new radio, new intercom, new headset, or some combination of those
An English pilot would normally find U.S. ATC-speak very difficult. They casually abbreviate a lot of stuff, especially when talking to a known local. I found this a huge problem when doing my IR out there. UK/European ATC are very professional in comparison.
On a wider topic, UK PPLs are taught to call up everybody under the sun. This is pointless. Only speak to somebody who can offer you a useful service.
An English pilot would normally find U.S. ATC-speak very difficult. They casually abbreviate a lot of stuff, especially when talking to a known local. I found this a huge problem when doing my IR out there. UK/European ATC are very professional in comparison.
On a wider topic, UK PPLs are taught to call up everybody under the sun. This is pointless. Only speak to somebody who can offer you a useful service.
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Originally Posted by IO540
If you can't understand the controller then you need ...
... the conventional response is, after failing to parse the reply to "please say again" several times, to say "changing to ...", or simply to tell them the route you're taking through their MATZ (no problem, they can see you on the radar anyway, and you have done your best to communicate).
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Without wanting be rude,I find most people's RT that I hear when flying to be abysmal, lots of um,erm,er,about,can you repeat that etc etc
I would hazard a guess that most of them learnt here not in the U.S....
I'm no expert but I was told early on that if you don't sound like you have some sort of idea what you are doing,that svfr clearance etc will not be coming your way!
I can hear the frustration in the controllers voices at my home base every time and its not usually students that are the offenders.
Sorry to rant,but decent RT is no bad thing
I would hazard a guess that most of them learnt here not in the U.S....
I'm no expert but I was told early on that if you don't sound like you have some sort of idea what you are doing,that svfr clearance etc will not be coming your way!
I can hear the frustration in the controllers voices at my home base every time and its not usually students that are the offenders.
Sorry to rant,but decent RT is no bad thing
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Sorry to rant,but decent RT is no bad thing
) while waiting to get in on the airwaves.It's already been said a couple of times, but my top tip is a little airband radio tuned to a few local frequencies. Ten minutes listening in every now and again will soon help you recognise good practice from bad and improve your chances at deciphering the rapid-fire delivery some controllers specialise in. If you want to listen to a wide range of pilots' abilities versus exceptionally professional and tolerant controllers, you can do far worse than tune into Thames Radar on 132.7
It can be a bit of an eye (ear?) opener...
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I'm no expert but I was told early on that if you don't sound like you have some sort of idea what you are doing,that svfr clearance etc will not be coming your way!
I'm not sure I agree that listening in on a busy frequency is a good way to learn, given that as stated left and right, the standard isn't very high. Listening to professionals, i.e. commercial airways traffic, isn't much help either because the nature of what they're doing and saying is so different from a VFR flight from here to there. However, what you can take away from listening to them is how LITTLE they say. In fact, most bad RT seems to me to involve talking too much. So my tip is to say as little as possible whilst getting the essentials across - who you are, where you are, what you want, unlike me in this post before someone else says it. Have a clear idea of what you're going to say before you PTT and listen to make sure that nobody has just finished saying something to which one would expect a reply (e.g. don't jump in after a clearance has been given by ATC until the recipient has acknowledged it).
Mind you, if you learnt in the US then most of what I've said above will probably already be second nature because they tend to talk less (in response to me acknowledging an instruction with "turn left zero nine zero, november six foxtrot" an instructor said to me "if you don't cut it with that november **** we'll never get home").
The problem with RT standards in my opinion is that you don't learn by doing it for real, because nobody corrects the mistakes you make, because it's bad form for a controller to "beat you up" whilst you're trying to fly. So take the flying out of the equation; find an experienced pilot, sit in a quiet room and fly from Southend to Bristol tracing your route on a half mil map, you making all the radio calls and him answering them and correcting your screw ups.
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I was in the same position some time ago. An American instructor put me right - a message is made up of "Who you are, where you're at (SIC) and what you want." If you don't want anything, there is no need to speak to anyone!
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The thing about RT is not to worry too much about the format....that comes with practice....but to know what you want to ask and ask it in a clear and concise way......who you are, where you are, what you want:
GABCD is a PA28 from Jersey to Bristol via Portland VFR, 10 South of Bournemouth at 3000', request RIS.......
I don't bother with headings, ETAs, and stuff like that unless it is pertinent (on the way to Jersey I'd say the ETA at ORTAC or 50N as I know from experience they'll just come back and ask me). In the above example, if I am going from Jersey to Bristol, I am sure a controller can work out my rough heading. They probably don't care about my ETA, and if they do they will come back and ask me. Later on if I decide to change my route or altitude, I'll come back and advise them.
I learned in the USA, but around LA where RT has to be learned from day one. I used to crap myself at the thought of getting it wrong, but you do get it in the end and it is no biggie.
GABCD is a PA28 from Jersey to Bristol via Portland VFR, 10 South of Bournemouth at 3000', request RIS.......
I don't bother with headings, ETAs, and stuff like that unless it is pertinent (on the way to Jersey I'd say the ETA at ORTAC or 50N as I know from experience they'll just come back and ask me). In the above example, if I am going from Jersey to Bristol, I am sure a controller can work out my rough heading. They probably don't care about my ETA, and if they do they will come back and ask me. Later on if I decide to change my route or altitude, I'll come back and advise them.
I learned in the USA, but around LA where RT has to be learned from day one. I used to crap myself at the thought of getting it wrong, but you do get it in the end and it is no biggie.
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In the UK, OCAS, VFR, there is generally no point in calling up anybody unless they have radar.
I nearly wrote "unless they can provide a radar service" but actually it's worth calling up a radar unit for an FIS, if you are passing close to/under their airspace. Even if they don't provide you with a radar service, they will see you allright so they won't keep asking stupid questions, and this will help them with separation with traffic which they are working.
So, no point in calling up London Info, Goodwood Radio, Panshanger Radio, Eaglescott Radio, etc.
I am suprised, Drauk, that radio competence does not correlate with VFR transits. How many units was this tested with? Was it tested outside the UK? For starters, Timothy would have had a Mode C transponder. Did he tell them it was an Aztec or did he pretend to be a Warrior?
I nearly wrote "unless they can provide a radar service" but actually it's worth calling up a radar unit for an FIS, if you are passing close to/under their airspace. Even if they don't provide you with a radar service, they will see you allright so they won't keep asking stupid questions, and this will help them with separation with traffic which they are working.
So, no point in calling up London Info, Goodwood Radio, Panshanger Radio, Eaglescott Radio, etc.
I am suprised, Drauk, that radio competence does not correlate with VFR transits. How many units was this tested with? Was it tested outside the UK? For starters, Timothy would have had a Mode C transponder. Did he tell them it was an Aztec or did he pretend to be a Warrior?
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How would the correct procedure for asking for SVFR?
Is it just the same as a MATZ penetration where you say who you are, where your going and the request a MATZ penetration with your ETA to the entering the airspace (hope thats right).
Is it just the same as a MATZ penetration where you say who you are, where your going and the request a MATZ penetration with your ETA to the entering the airspace (hope thats right).
I've had the same problem, 900 hrs in the US, occasionally fly out of White Waltham when visiting. Assuming you're OK with the radio in the US (I fly out of Palo Alto, between San Francisco and San Jose, so no problem there for me anyway), it's not that big a deal. I did my first solo xc in the UK a couple of months ago. Occasionally I left things out that the UK wants (like origin of flight, no idea why they care but they do), they just very politely asked me for it. At W/W you definitely *do* need to use the radio, especially if you want to fly to points eastward and clip corners off the Heathrow Class A.
I did a couple of hours dual (had to anyway for the club checkout) which mostly got me straight on the different radio technique. The main differences are:
-- things have different names (Radar vs Center, Radio vs Tower etc)
-- the format of a flight following/FIS request
-- the format of an initial contact to an airport for landing
-- and flying-wise, the overhead join used in the UK
The smart thing to do (which I didn't) would be to jot down a summary of the differences and clip it to your kneeboard.
n5296s
I did a couple of hours dual (had to anyway for the club checkout) which mostly got me straight on the different radio technique. The main differences are:
-- things have different names (Radar vs Center, Radio vs Tower etc)
-- the format of a flight following/FIS request
-- the format of an initial contact to an airport for landing
-- and flying-wise, the overhead join used in the UK
The smart thing to do (which I didn't) would be to jot down a summary of the differences and clip it to your kneeboard.
n5296s
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Find a small - but perferably busy - airfield which has volunteers on the radio. Ask if you can go up to the tower and listen on a busy weekend day, or if you can even do some of it. That way, you'll be surrounded by UK radio usage, and you'll pick up how it's done. If you're at all nervous with the radio, being a trainee AG operator will help incredibly; I did this in the early days, and it did more for my RT than any amount of reading, flying with other pilots etc etc. Practice makes perfect. 