Glou idiot !
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Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
Andy
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No it doesn't remove the need for training.
But it does leave the responsibility for obtaining that training where it belongs: With me.
If I don't learn how to use the AIS website or the GPS device(s) I use then I shouldn't (and wouldn't) blame someone else for that shortcoming.
But it does leave the responsibility for obtaining that training where it belongs: With me.
If I don't learn how to use the AIS website or the GPS device(s) I use then I shouldn't (and wouldn't) blame someone else for that shortcoming.
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Originally Posted by Humaround
"So what is wrong with Notam Plot.
It is free,
It is real time,
It shows all the data in a graphical interface."...
.... it's yet ANOTHER flightware product that is Windows only....
It is free,
It is real time,
It shows all the data in a graphical interface."...
.... it's yet ANOTHER flightware product that is Windows only....
Actually its a Java application which runs fine on my PowerMac and without a doubt is a good tool. It would be great, if between Ais and Avbrief you could get the narrow route data and plot it with NotamPlot
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"Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Everyone is taught from the same syllabus, everyone knows what they need to be briefed on (WX and NOTAMs to name 2), so WTF is it "someone else's" fault when they fail to do it?"
If you havent been trained properly, not surprisingly you might want to blame the trainer.
Seems odd that if a number of people are saying they werent trained where to find this information, and how to disseminate the information in a user freindly way, instructors wouldnt want to sit up and take note.
It also seems odd when you would hope the bi-annual is there to keep pilots "within the system" that examiners would also not want to sit up and take note.
Turn your post around. The training industry can go on ignoring the problems and complaining it should all be down to personal responsibility when someone forgot to mention at the last bi-annual you should watch your speed a bit more closely on late final because you are risky "stalling in".
If you havent been trained properly, not surprisingly you might want to blame the trainer.
Seems odd that if a number of people are saying they werent trained where to find this information, and how to disseminate the information in a user freindly way, instructors wouldnt want to sit up and take note.
It also seems odd when you would hope the bi-annual is there to keep pilots "within the system" that examiners would also not want to sit up and take note.
Turn your post around. The training industry can go on ignoring the problems and complaining it should all be down to personal responsibility when someone forgot to mention at the last bi-annual you should watch your speed a bit more closely on late final because you are risky "stalling in".
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My training experience was similar to IO540's.
I had heard mention of notams during my training in TT manuals, but I naively assumed that they were either something from a bygone era, or just for airline pilots.
None were ever hung up on our club notice board, and no instructor ever showed my where to get them, or how to read them. In fact the first time I ever saw them, was on the day of my Skills Test when I had handed a badly printed fax page from an instructor and told to read them, in case the examiner asked me anything about them. I could barley make any sense out of the codes. I passed my Skills Test that day, not knowing where to get, or how to read Notams.
If fact it was through PPrune, and the help and support of other here, that I managed to educate myself in the use of notams. I now wouldn't dream of taking off without checking them first.
I had an interesting conversation with an instructor doing a checkout for me when I was joining a different club. He asked me if I had checked the notams. I quickly produced my narrow route brief, having circled the ones I thought relevant. He quickly produced his own printout, was rather surprised that my list contained some relevant notams that his didn't, and that my list was about 4 pages, while his was 1 & 1/2.
It turns out that he gets his notams from an unofficial source on the net, where he simply puts in his field of departure and destination. What he gets returned is the notams for the two airfields, but nothing enroute
If you are just bimbling in the local area, you'll probably get away with this. But if you want to go any distance, you need to be able to do a proper briefing.
I blame the instructors. I was churned out of the PPL training system, not knowing where or how to get Notams, and not knowing how to read them if I did find them. But worst of all, I was churned out not knowing their importance.
I had heard mention of notams during my training in TT manuals, but I naively assumed that they were either something from a bygone era, or just for airline pilots.
None were ever hung up on our club notice board, and no instructor ever showed my where to get them, or how to read them. In fact the first time I ever saw them, was on the day of my Skills Test when I had handed a badly printed fax page from an instructor and told to read them, in case the examiner asked me anything about them. I could barley make any sense out of the codes. I passed my Skills Test that day, not knowing where to get, or how to read Notams.
If fact it was through PPrune, and the help and support of other here, that I managed to educate myself in the use of notams. I now wouldn't dream of taking off without checking them first.
I had an interesting conversation with an instructor doing a checkout for me when I was joining a different club. He asked me if I had checked the notams. I quickly produced my narrow route brief, having circled the ones I thought relevant. He quickly produced his own printout, was rather surprised that my list contained some relevant notams that his didn't, and that my list was about 4 pages, while his was 1 & 1/2.
It turns out that he gets his notams from an unofficial source on the net, where he simply puts in his field of departure and destination. What he gets returned is the notams for the two airfields, but nothing enroute
If you are just bimbling in the local area, you'll probably get away with this. But if you want to go any distance, you need to be able to do a proper briefing.
I blame the instructors. I was churned out of the PPL training system, not knowing where or how to get Notams, and not knowing how to read them if I did find them. But worst of all, I was churned out not knowing their importance.
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Fuji, I know from other threads that arguing is futile and/or you completely miss the point, so we'll have to agree to differ.
I'll take responsibilty for my knowing how to use the AIS website, the Met Office website, my GPS, my engine(s) and everything else a pilot might be expected to take responsibility for.
I'll also take responsibility for ensuring I complete my annual and bi-ennial (ftr, bi-annual means twice every 12 months) check flights and take any lessons learned away from those.
What I won't do is blame everyone else if/when there's a knowledge gap. This comes back to my point about taking personal responsibility.
BTW, you guys must go to some pretty ropey training establishments if everything you suggest they don't teach is not taught. If I were you I'd not go back but find somewhere decent. Vote with your wallet.
I'll take responsibilty for my knowing how to use the AIS website, the Met Office website, my GPS, my engine(s) and everything else a pilot might be expected to take responsibility for.
I'll also take responsibility for ensuring I complete my annual and bi-ennial (ftr, bi-annual means twice every 12 months) check flights and take any lessons learned away from those.
What I won't do is blame everyone else if/when there's a knowledge gap. This comes back to my point about taking personal responsibility.
BTW, you guys must go to some pretty ropey training establishments if everything you suggest they don't teach is not taught. If I were you I'd not go back but find somewhere decent. Vote with your wallet.
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Rustle
"Fuji, I know from other threads that arguing is futile and/or you completely miss the point, so we'll have to agree to differ."
OK
It is a shame when others relate a similiar experience on this thread that notice is not taken.
There will always be a few arrogant pilots who intentionally ignore the rules. I take the view that is true of very few. If pilots are getting things wrong then I would far rather see if the "problem" can be rectified at the root. This has nothing to do with "blaming" anyone, but a lot to do with reviewing existing policy to see how this might be improved. If you reckon the training is perfect then indeed I have missed the point.
If you are happy to see more pilots prosecuted then I would also agree with your post.
"Fuji, I know from other threads that arguing is futile and/or you completely miss the point, so we'll have to agree to differ."
OK
It is a shame when others relate a similiar experience on this thread that notice is not taken.
There will always be a few arrogant pilots who intentionally ignore the rules. I take the view that is true of very few. If pilots are getting things wrong then I would far rather see if the "problem" can be rectified at the root. This has nothing to do with "blaming" anyone, but a lot to do with reviewing existing policy to see how this might be improved. If you reckon the training is perfect then indeed I have missed the point.
If you are happy to see more pilots prosecuted then I would also agree with your post.
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rustle
I'll take responsibilty for my knowing how to use the AIS website, the Met Office website, my GPS, my engine(s)
Unfortunately:
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the AIS website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to get notams through any other route.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the MO website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use any internet weather source.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use a GPS
A PPL student is not normally trained anything about engine management; most training is done with mixture fully rich.
Very few PPLs read pprune.org.
Very few PPLs read flyer.co.uk.
Very few PPLs read any other pilot website.
So it's no good moaning that everybody should know this stuff. The pilot community on here (and other places where I guess you hang out) is almost completely un-representative of the private pilot population flying around.
Otherwise, I agree with you 100%
To be practical about it, if the CAA was looking for a way to improve things, I would suggest that some action on the instructor front would be by far the most productive.
I'll take responsibilty for my knowing how to use the AIS website, the Met Office website, my GPS, my engine(s)
Unfortunately:
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the AIS website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to get notams through any other route.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the MO website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use any internet weather source.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use a GPS
A PPL student is not normally trained anything about engine management; most training is done with mixture fully rich.
Very few PPLs read pprune.org.
Very few PPLs read flyer.co.uk.
Very few PPLs read any other pilot website.
So it's no good moaning that everybody should know this stuff. The pilot community on here (and other places where I guess you hang out) is almost completely un-representative of the private pilot population flying around.
Otherwise, I agree with you 100%
To be practical about it, if the CAA was looking for a way to improve things, I would suggest that some action on the instructor front would be by far the most productive.
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But surely you have read either the Trevor Thom manuals or the AFE / similar manuals, and then sat the PPL exams? Hopefully that would teach you the theory behind met, using the mixture, preflight nav planning etc. (Unless of course you just used the 'confuser' with the intention of only passing the exams.....not learning the useful/important stuff).
There is an awful lot to cover in the PPL sylabus as it is and when you consider the range of students who train for their PPL it is difficult to apply one method for all. What I did (and now teach) is to read through the theory books for both the exams and the flight breifings and then use these as the basis for any questions for the instructor. From an instructors point of view, judging 'depth of knowledge' is very difficult (anyone who has read Propellerhead will know what I mean...the bit about the Pitot tube)!
The written exams and the skills tests are then just methods for checking the 'basics' are there. We all then get our licences and the learning really begins! If the PPL were to teach absolutely everything there is to know about flying.....then the experience is going to take thousands of hours!
Going back to the earlier point...I think I shall be putting a stern letter in the post to my former driving instructor as I got caught speeding 4 weeks ago....couldn't possibly be my fault?
There is an awful lot to cover in the PPL sylabus as it is and when you consider the range of students who train for their PPL it is difficult to apply one method for all. What I did (and now teach) is to read through the theory books for both the exams and the flight breifings and then use these as the basis for any questions for the instructor. From an instructors point of view, judging 'depth of knowledge' is very difficult (anyone who has read Propellerhead will know what I mean...the bit about the Pitot tube)!
The written exams and the skills tests are then just methods for checking the 'basics' are there. We all then get our licences and the learning really begins! If the PPL were to teach absolutely everything there is to know about flying.....then the experience is going to take thousands of hours!
Going back to the earlier point...I think I shall be putting a stern letter in the post to my former driving instructor as I got caught speeding 4 weeks ago....couldn't possibly be my fault?
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Originally Posted by GuinnessQueen
But surely you have read either the Trevor Thom manuals or the AFE / similar manuals, and then sat the PPL exams?
When I learnt to fly in the mid 80's (and bear in mind I'm only 43) the "manuals" were Birch and Bransom Vol 1 and Cap 85. The latest and greatest computer on the block was the Sinclair spectrum and the Internet was a decade or so in the future. I also bought one of the first Gps units in 1991.
For Notams I used to visit the Clearance office of my local airport and in the office next door was the Met office where I could always get a personal briefing from a forcaster.
If you were trained in this era and only flew from a farm strip, unless you are technically savy it would be very easy to just sit there bemoaning the passing of met offices etc without realising that there are other alternatives.
What has the CAA done to alert the non computer owning, non magazine reading 1980's (or 50's/60's/70's) PPL to the change in ways of obtaining info?
It is possible that some might have assumed that the info had been abolished in government cuts.
Just playing devils advocate you understand
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"But surely you have read either the Trevor Thom manuals or the AFE / similar manuals, and then sat the PPL exams? Hopefully that would teach you the theory behind met, using the mixture, preflight nav planning etc."
So you would want your Doctor to treat you on the basis of the theory learnt from Gray's anatomy?
No one ever told me how to lean the mixture during my PPL. I have just looked back through my first log book - I had six different instructors. I thought you just left the mixture rich and whatever TT said, I wouldnt have been brave enough to tamper with it, even if I had grasp what TT had to say on the matter.
I admit weather came from the club notice board as did the NOTAMS.
Strange how many people have had and still have the same experience.
Anyone had their instructor chat to them about where, when and how they obtain weather and NOTAMS at their last biennial. (Thanks Rustle you are quite correct, but there is no hyphen 
).
So you would want your Doctor to treat you on the basis of the theory learnt from Gray's anatomy?
No one ever told me how to lean the mixture during my PPL. I have just looked back through my first log book - I had six different instructors. I thought you just left the mixture rich and whatever TT said, I wouldnt have been brave enough to tamper with it, even if I had grasp what TT had to say on the matter.
I admit weather came from the club notice board as did the NOTAMS.
Strange how many people have had and still have the same experience.
Anyone had their instructor chat to them about where, when and how they obtain weather and NOTAMS at their last biennial. (Thanks Rustle you are quite correct, but there is no hyphen
).
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Training
10540 wrote:
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the AIS website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to get notams through any other route.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the MO website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use any internet weather source.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use a GPS
A PPL student is not normally trained anything about engine management; most training is done with mixture fully rich.
Very few PPLs read pprune.org.
Very few PPLs read flyer.co.uk.
Very few PPLs read any other pilot website.
As a low hours PPL student I am not very well qualified to comment on the above,but I do feel personal responsiblity has to play a part.
I have registered with the AIS website
I have not been trained yet on obtaining NOTAMS but thought this might be useful so worked it out myself with AIS and Notamplot.
I have also bought NavBox
I signed up with the Metoffice to get all my weather reports.
I am training myself in the use of GPS ( and will seek some official training)
I have asked about leaning techniques
I read as much stuff as I can about GA.
I wring out my instructor as much as he does me-at these prices I am not going to sit there like some nodding dog.
Modelman
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the AIS website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to get notams through any other route.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use the MO website.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use any internet weather source.
A PPL student is not normally trained to use a GPS
A PPL student is not normally trained anything about engine management; most training is done with mixture fully rich.
Very few PPLs read pprune.org.
Very few PPLs read flyer.co.uk.
Very few PPLs read any other pilot website.
As a low hours PPL student I am not very well qualified to comment on the above,but I do feel personal responsiblity has to play a part.
I have registered with the AIS website
I have not been trained yet on obtaining NOTAMS but thought this might be useful so worked it out myself with AIS and Notamplot.
I have also bought NavBox
I signed up with the Metoffice to get all my weather reports.
I am training myself in the use of GPS ( and will seek some official training)
I have asked about leaning techniques
I read as much stuff as I can about GA.
I wring out my instructor as much as he does me-at these prices I am not going to sit there like some nodding dog.
Modelman
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"I wring out my instructor as much as he does me-at these prices I am not going to sit there like some nodding dog."
You are correct to do so, but why should you have to.
That is not personal responsibility - its not getting what you paid for.
A good instructor can tell you everything you need to know about obtaining NOTAMS and weather as the system currently stands in a one hour lecture.
So what happened to ground school?
So what happened to the personal responsibility of professional instructors who are willing to go on allowing PPLs to qualify without satisfactory ground school?
You are correct to do so, but why should you have to.
That is not personal responsibility - its not getting what you paid for.
A good instructor can tell you everything you need to know about obtaining NOTAMS and weather as the system currently stands in a one hour lecture.
So what happened to ground school?
So what happened to the personal responsibility of professional instructors who are willing to go on allowing PPLs to qualify without satisfactory ground school?
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
Anyone had their instructor chat to them about where, when and how they obtain weather and NOTAMS at their last biennial.
When I re-qualified for my PPL in 1998, I was given no instruction on the use of a transponder. Only one of the school aircraft had one and the first time I flew this particular aircraft was on my solo qualifying Xcountry for which I had to fly through two AIAA's. I had previously only done one of the three legs with an instructor and this was not through either AIAA which, for that flight on a weekend, were not active anyway. My solo flight was in the week when they were active.
Fortunately, I had flown to Newcastle with a friend a few weeks before and had learned how to use the transponder by watching him and this helped me to get a superb RIS through both areas. But no thanks to my instructor.
On my last bi annual check which was with a CAA examiner, I was not asked about Notams and cannot remember them coming up in any of my previous ones.
My neighbour is currently learning to fly and I do not get the impression that Notams figure very strongly in his flight preparation either. In my view they should be treated as important as fuel before every flight, even if you are just planning to do circuits - it can be a bit embarrassing to suddenly find you cannot use the taxiway you are used to.
Fortunately, I had flown to Newcastle with a friend a few weeks before and had learned how to use the transponder by watching him and this helped me to get a superb RIS through both areas. But no thanks to my instructor.
On my last bi annual check which was with a CAA examiner, I was not asked about Notams and cannot remember them coming up in any of my previous ones.
My neighbour is currently learning to fly and I do not get the impression that Notams figure very strongly in his flight preparation either. In my view they should be treated as important as fuel before every flight, even if you are just planning to do circuits - it can be a bit embarrassing to suddenly find you cannot use the taxiway you are used to.
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Anyone have any views on the effect of the regulatory regime on training?
A friend is training at the moment and it is rare to have the same instructor twice running. With such fragmentation it's no surprise that unexamined skillls get missed.
Part of the blame lies IMHO at the feet of the CAA for their decision years ago that FI's needed to hold a CPL or higher in order to be paid.
A PPL/FI is every bit as qualified to instruct as a CPL/FI yet he is unable to recover the costs of obtaining and maintaining his rating. If he wants to do so he must get a CPL and hold a Class 1. Net result? Instruction is effectively limited to those primarily interested in commercial aviation who are merely filling in while looking for a "proper" job, costs are higher than they need to be and instructors ditch their students at the sniff of a job or interview.
It does the "self improver" no favours either. If he were able to be paid for instructing as a PPL/FI he could defer his entry into CPL/ATPL training to a time when he had more experience, could gain more from the training, and have better prospects of getting a job on completion. He'd also avoid the expense of keeping his unused commercial ratings current while building his hours.
PPL training takes place in a benign environment (students don't fly in unsuitable conditions). It's not the same as Public Transport and shouldn't be subject to the same restrictions.
Mike
A friend is training at the moment and it is rare to have the same instructor twice running. With such fragmentation it's no surprise that unexamined skillls get missed.
Part of the blame lies IMHO at the feet of the CAA for their decision years ago that FI's needed to hold a CPL or higher in order to be paid.
A PPL/FI is every bit as qualified to instruct as a CPL/FI yet he is unable to recover the costs of obtaining and maintaining his rating. If he wants to do so he must get a CPL and hold a Class 1. Net result? Instruction is effectively limited to those primarily interested in commercial aviation who are merely filling in while looking for a "proper" job, costs are higher than they need to be and instructors ditch their students at the sniff of a job or interview.
It does the "self improver" no favours either. If he were able to be paid for instructing as a PPL/FI he could defer his entry into CPL/ATPL training to a time when he had more experience, could gain more from the training, and have better prospects of getting a job on completion. He'd also avoid the expense of keeping his unused commercial ratings current while building his hours.
PPL training takes place in a benign environment (students don't fly in unsuitable conditions). It's not the same as Public Transport and shouldn't be subject to the same restrictions.
Mike
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This time, exceptionally, I am not going to blame all the world's problems on the ATPL hour builders
These are mostly relatively bright young men who do know how to use the internet - much more so than the older instructors who know as much about the internet as the average person of similar age (not a lot, usually). It would be trivial to get them to teach the material.
They have also (usually) sat the ATPL ground school which deals with weather pretty exhaustively. OK, it does it in a rather theoretical manner and again without teaching how to get the raw data via the internet (GFS in particular) but this is only a short step.
The problem is with the syllabus which is deliberately really really basic.
It is so backward that the mind boggles how much effort must go into keeping it so backward, and who bothers to keep up this pretence that "the olde ways are the best".
Fortunately for the CAA, when they want to prosecute somebody, they can use a GPS to find their way to the courtroom, they can use computers to type up their evidence, etc Nothing backward in that.
Anybody with some sort of technical education, who enters PPL training, wonders where all this cr*p is coming from and how long they will have to put up with it.
The lack of GPS is the most obvious thing but that's because everybody knows about it, and most reasonably smart people use it elsewhere. But nobody outside aviation will know about internet notam and weather sources - unless they happen to read stuff like this.
The circular slide rule is the second one.
These are mostly relatively bright young men who do know how to use the internet - much more so than the older instructors who know as much about the internet as the average person of similar age (not a lot, usually). It would be trivial to get them to teach the material.
They have also (usually) sat the ATPL ground school which deals with weather pretty exhaustively. OK, it does it in a rather theoretical manner and again without teaching how to get the raw data via the internet (GFS in particular) but this is only a short step.
The problem is with the syllabus which is deliberately really really basic.
It is so backward that the mind boggles how much effort must go into keeping it so backward, and who bothers to keep up this pretence that "the olde ways are the best".
Fortunately for the CAA, when they want to prosecute somebody, they can use a GPS to find their way to the courtroom, they can use computers to type up their evidence, etc
Nothing backward in that.Anybody with some sort of technical education, who enters PPL training, wonders where all this cr*p is coming from and how long they will have to put up with it.
The lack of GPS is the most obvious thing but that's because everybody knows about it, and most reasonably smart people use it elsewhere. But nobody outside aviation will know about internet notam and weather sources - unless they happen to read stuff like this.
The circular slide rule is the second one.
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Originally Posted by IO540
The problem is with the syllabus which is deliberately really really basic.
And quite right too.
One could include everything in the PPL and make it 200 hours.
The PPL does not inlcude aerobatics training. A pilot who gets their PPL and straight away purchases a zlin and promptly kills themselves can not blame the training industry for not providing aerobatic training in the basic PPL.
Smilarly, the pilot who trains in a C150 and purchases an M201 on PPL completion can not balme the trainig industry for being 50 miles behind the aircraft.
The PPL is designed to get a person to the standard that permits them to fly simple light aircraft while carrying passengers without endangering them. A big part of the course is Airmanship and a big part of Airmanship is not doing anything or using anything one is not happy with - Ask and instructor!
I agree that instructors are not teaching MET and NOTAM briefings correctly. There is much work required in that area. Part of the problem being that they were not shown it in the first place and thus have no idea themselves.
Clubs should NOT publish met or NOTAMS. Every pilot should get their own.
GPS is covered in a very basic way on the PPL. Why only this? Because there are such a variety of GPS uits available that it is futile. The CAA, the training organisations, the representative organisations (AOPA etc) and the GPS manufacturers all recomend that prior to using aviation units (hand held or otherwise) that training is obtained from a qualified instructor. If pilots ignore that information and get into trouble then it is clearly their own fault.
--------
Originally Posted by Flap40
If you were trained in this era and only flew from a farm strip, unless you are technically savy it would be very easy to just sit there bemoaning the passing of met offices etc without realising that there are other alternatives.
-------
These days, many students eat the confuser rather than read the books. There lies part of te problem - learning answers is not good enough.
Regards,
DFC