I still can't believe I was that stupid...

[Confabulous]

Twas the minute before I cocked up and all was going badly. We were bimbling along, with me trying to hold 1800ft and my instructor nagging me to hold altitude within +/- 200ft. It had been 6 weeks since I had my previous lessons, which went so well I was actually pleased with my performance. That was the first problem, me being a humble student pilot and cocky b*stard.

This day was completely different. I was 3 hours and 300 miles behind the aircraft, wondering why I couldn't hold altitude and why the power kept gradually decreasing. Then my instructor asked me to get my map, which I'd casually tossed in the back a few minutes before, so I began a search of the untidy back seats,tossing things this way and that.

After a minute or so of scrabbling around my instructor spoke up. 'Have you forgotten something?' 'No', I replied frantically, 'I'm sure I'll find it somewhere!' 'No, no', he insisted, 'You have forgotten something, something important.' I stopped searching and looked around, but couldn't spot anything amiss. What was the damn problem?

I looked again.

No-one was flying the aircraft! I'd forgotten to utter the magic words, 'You have control'

Burning with shame I put my hands and feet back where they were meant to be and uttered the words, confirmed he had control and turned back to my search.

The power had been reducing because I'd been resting my hand on the throttle (PA28), and I couldn't hold altitude because I'd been slightly out of trim.

As an aside, I once completed a landing thinking my instructor had control - I was wrong, I had control all the way to touchdown - I only found out a few hours later. The landing was fine, but still, it makes me confirm who has control now.


I learned about flying that day (and every other day) and I write this as a sort of informal ASRS report - I frankly don't care if it makes me look stupid, if one person takes it on board then it's worth it.

[Fuji Abound]

To consol you, it is a situation the instructor is looking for, and will find at some time or other with most, if not nearly all students.

However, forgetting to keep control (never mind thinking you had passed it to the P2) is something that can happen to all of us - that is the real lesson. This sort of situation in IMC is potentially a killer, even if a only a little less dangerous in VMC.

However, you will cover different recoveries and these will make even more sense now. With altitude on your side almost any situation is recoverable so long as you act quickly enough and in the correct way.

[planeenglish]

We who are still studying for our PPL need to know things like this. Thanks,

PE

[kevmusic]

Don't be too hard on yourself, Confab. After all, that's what we're students for - to make mistakes and learn. I am a fully licensed, fully rated, multi-thousand hour piano instructor, and I have seen many over-critical adult pupils whipping themselves for perfectly natural run-of-the-mill errors, instead of focussing on getting to grips with the next problem.

Put this down to experience and know that you will make other seemingly silly errors. Our instructors certainly wouldn't thank us all for being perfect from day 1 - that would put them out of a job!

Kev.

[aw8565]

Originally Posted by planeenglish

We who are still studying for our PPL need to know things like this. Thanks,

PE

Damn right. That whole can't hold altitude/speed/heading thing is the worst but I guess it's not just me... Gaps in training are not the best so I'm planning to go to Spain for a few days intensive....

[Florida mud wrestler]

Can't understand why the aircraft didn't disply the same sense of humour that most aircraft do in similar circumstances when nobody has control - enter a spiral dive without anybody noticing!

[foxmoth]

That is the other instructor trick in this situation - just gently apply a little rudder and see how long before the student reacts.

[planeenglish]

I have a question somewhat regarding this argument. It is my understanding that an instructor can have very few hours. In fact a lot of flight training schools use very young and therefore, inexperienced, instructors to teach/instruct PPL trainees.

These types of things, giving a bit of rudder in an instance when the student pilot neglects to pass control, come with experience albeit may be a simple thing learned even themselves as a student pilot. Even though, I would rather a grey haired, or even no-haired instructor (my theory is they lose their hair rather than their temper )who has accumulated hours and hours. We as humans learn by mistake/experience. It seems that I can learn more from a pilot with thousands of hours than one who is still acquiring hours/experience.

What do you all think?

Regards,
PE

[BEagle]

The instructor did something very stupid when he didn't insist on a firm "I have control" handover. Unless you hear those words, you will always have control. But by your own admission, there have already been a couple of occasions when you didn't know who had control - that is highly dangerous and your FI needs a sound kick! To say "Have you forgotten something" whilst you are learning to fly and are handling the aeroplane is another stupid and confusing thing to do. If he wanted you to get your map, he should have said "I have control"; you then hand over. Then he should have made the teaching point "You need to have your map available within reach. Please do so in future." Then, when you had retrieved the map and had stowed it somewhere accessible, he should have confirmed you were ready, then said something like "When I give you control, I want you to maintain this heading and speed as you've been taught, this time try to make sure you don't inadvertently reduce power by leaning on the throttle lever! Any questions? No? OK - You have control" and waited for your "I have control response" before releasing control to you.

Also, interfering with the flight controls when someone else is handling the aeroplane "...just gently apply a little rudder and see how long before the student reacts" is a definite no-no.

Who are the 'instructors' who are doing such things?

You "weren't that stupid" - but your FI certainly was!

[Maxflyer]

It seems that I can learn more from a pilot with thousands of hours than one who is still acquiring hours/experience.

Just a tad disingenuous, anyone who has achieved an instructor rating has done so by merit and proving their ability to manage new students as well as some more experienced PPLs. I have been checked out by instructors at both ends of the age/experience spectrum and have learnt from all. The ones who hold a newly minted Instructor rating often cover more items during a flight, simply because it is fresh in the mind, whereas those with more hours have the benefit of experience. I know some instructors are hours building, so what! They have earned the right to instruct and should be accorded the respect due. Having said all of that; there are still some bad instructors, but they are considerably less in number than the good ones.

[Say again s l o w l y]

BEagle,
I think that's a bit harsh. From the sound of this thread, Confabulous won't make that mistake again. So job done. I think it's a pretty good technique, let the student make the mistake but also to see what could happen. A far more effective demonstration than just telling a student what could potentially happen.

Don't worry Confab, you aren't the first and you certainly won't be the last to make a mistake. The key is that you learn from it. No-one is born a sky-god!

[BEagle]

Six weeks between trips, the student is obviously struggling and the instructor merely says "Have you forgotten something?"....

Will that help?

Nope. And I still think he was a total tit.

[planeenglish]

Originally Posted by Maxflyer

Just a tad disingenuous, anyone who has achieved an instructor rating has done so by merit and proving their ability to manage new students as well as some more experienced PPLs. I have been checked out by instructors at both ends of the age/experience spectrum and have learnt from all. The ones who hold a newly minted Instructor rating often cover more items during a flight, simply because it is fresh in the mind, whereas those with more hours have the benefit of experience. I know some instructors are hours building, so what! They have earned the right to instruct and should be accorded the respect due. Having said all of that; there are still some bad instructors, but they are considerably less in number than the good ones.

Dear Maxflyer, the question was by no means insincere, it couldn't have been more sincere, nor was it meant to be facetious. I wouldn't have raised this issue if I weren't sincere. I've seen some of the responses on this forum and know that people can be outright rude and asked this question with the utmost sincerity.

There is no doubt legally the FI with brand new status follows the rule book and less "off-the-cuff" (for those who don't know this idiom it means to do something without plan and in this particular context without much thought to the rules).


My question was simply to ask your everyone's opinion. Thanks for yours,

Kind regards,
PE

[Say again s l o w l y]

Ah, I didn't notice the 6 week gap. I'm not sure that the FI is a "tit" but a bit more support may have been sensible.

[Whirlybird]

A lot of all this is about the best ways of dealing with people and allowing them to learn rather than specifically about flying instruction. That isn't really something that's taught in the flying instructor course. It comes with experience, both of flying and of life. It also involves a genuine empathy with people and desire for them to do well...not necessarily the same as liking them, though that helps too. Not all flying instructors have this. Some are better at it than others, and some improve as they gain the experience. Some don't even realise it's important!

To my mind, anything like Confabulous describes is something of a nasty trick, and ultimately won't help the student. It smacks of the instructor trying to put one over on the student, to prove how clever he is. I don't like it and I wouldn't do it. Flying is hard enough without instructors being devious.

Instructions and teaching should be simple and straightforward. If someone forgets the whole "I have control" thing, then keep reminding them. If they keep leaving their map out of reach, then remind them till they remember. We've all done it, and Confabulous shouldn't have been made to feel bad about this. As I think someone said earlier in the thread - you learn from something and go on. Well, I think this type of trick-playing makes it harder for the student to do that. It was a little thing; it shouldn't have been made into something big and dramatic by the instructor.

Having said that, instructors are learning too. So let's not be too hard on this guy...though I still think what he did was unhelpful.

[DFC]

I am with Beagle on this one.

My advice in such situations is for the student to always think of what they would do in a similar situation after they have their PPL.

The answer is either - a) Don't put the map (or anything else required in flight) there in the first place; or

Get the passenger in the right seat to do the searching while you fly the aircraft. i.e. ask the instructor in this case to retreive the map.

If the instructor refuses (very bad on their part), then simply say "You have control".

Regards,

DFC

[foxmoth]

I still think what he did was unhelpful.

Whilst this is not something I would do often, I do think there are times when you have repeated an instruction such as handing over control numerous times without it sinking in, and a gentle demonstration of why this is the case saves a lot of wasted breath and this would seem to be the situation here, especially as there had been a previous situation where who had control had been a bit confused, and at a much more critical point!

[bencoulthard]

I don't agree with Beagle on this one, learn from your mistakes. If the FI didn't make a big enough point of a mistake then maybe it wouldn't register as a mistake in the students head.

I know its a long way from flight training but I teach new employees to drive my road sweepers. Driving one of these things is like patting your head and rubbing your belly whilst driving. Everyone I teach can't believe how much concentration it takes at first and all agree it is like learning to drive all over again.

I let them make mistakes, then follow the hmmmm why did you get into this pickle route, then I show them what should have happened. I find this works far better than saying "don't do this and that cos its not right" it simply doesn't sink in as they are too busy concentrating on the new vehicle they are driving.

Maybe I shoudl adopt the "you have control" command as these machines have dual controls also.

Ben

[SkyHawk-N]

I'm going to sound harsh now as I also think that the instructor was a tit.

If this was an effective training method then why isn't it used more regularly(?). I had reoccuring hang ups when I learnt, forgetting things, doing things in the wrong order, doing the wrong things, probably like most people. A gentle reminder usually did the trick, even if the gentle reminder was repeated a number of times. Remember that even at the later stages of training many (if not all) students still lack confidence and examples of this type of 'teaching' can do more damage than good, just look at the title of this thread for an example.

[justinmg]

Originally Posted by Confabulous

After a minute or so of scrabbling around my instructor spoke up. 'Have you forgotten something?' 'No', I replied frantically, 'I'm sure I'll find it somewhere!' 'No, no', he insisted, 'You have forgotten something, something important.' I stopped searching and looked around, but couldn't spot anything amiss. What was the damn problem?
I looked again.
No-one was flying the aircraft! I'd forgotten to utter the magic words, 'You have control'

Calling someone a tit is typical for these parts.
Unfortunatley the lessons learned are not noticed by people who read 2nd hand reports. People who can only appreciate teaching methods from a single approach make poor teachers. Students and teachers vary.
Getting someone to solve their own problem and critically appraise a situation is often much better than just dolling out directions. We need to teach students to be able to develop independance, and spoonfeeding can lead to dependance on the teacher.
Feeling shame for making a basic error is completely natural, and learning can not occur without it. Unless repeatedly negative, it is usually a powerful learning stimulus.

Sounds to me like, teacher taught, student learned. End of.

Others may like to overlay their own methods and egos onto the situation.