RT test
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Actually, isn't it a MAYDAY RELAY
Anyway, I think it is a waste of time.
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Quite right Keygrip, the opinion doesn't count. What does count is the arrogance of the inital post. I find it quite alarming that a mandatory piece of the ppl learning process is dismissed as an excuse to make money. Perhaps you feel the same about zone entrance clearances, or landing clearances perhaps??
In this game a little humility goes a long way, without it you become complacent, and that becomes the first link of the accident chain!! Don't fall into the same trap as most drivers. "I've passed the test, so I must be good" It means that at a given time on a given day you reached a MINIMUM standard. Look at it as a licence to learn!!
Just for a bit of thread creep, how does one become an RT instructor/examiner??
In this game a little humility goes a long way, without it you become complacent, and that becomes the first link of the accident chain!! Don't fall into the same trap as most drivers. "I've passed the test, so I must be good" It means that at a given time on a given day you reached a MINIMUM standard. Look at it as a licence to learn!!
Just for a bit of thread creep, how does one become an RT instructor/examiner??
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We could debate this RT stuff; probably there can be no hard positions on it.
However, I do think that currency affects it. I hear some dreadful RT every time I fly, and all of it sounds like pilots who either rarely fly, or are deaf. For example, if somebody says "over" at the end (shortwave-style amateur radio stuff) how much normal RT have they listened to? It's really basic and obvious.
There is also ATC to listen to. British ATC is normally very proper and very professional - so different from VFR services elsewhere. (IFR ATC is pretty good in most places). So a pilot who flies reasonably regularly must be wondering about whether some phrases are right.
I know little about the microlight scene but otherwise I think really bad RT tends to belong to pilots who are only just hanging in there. Training won't help them much.
Regards a Mayday relay, I recall this is another valid option: a man in a life raft could make a Mayday on 121.50 using a handheld radio, and an airliner could relay this as a Mayday relay call. I carry a radio and a handheld GPS for exactly this reason.
However, I do think that currency affects it. I hear some dreadful RT every time I fly, and all of it sounds like pilots who either rarely fly, or are deaf. For example, if somebody says "over" at the end (shortwave-style amateur radio stuff) how much normal RT have they listened to? It's really basic and obvious.
There is also ATC to listen to. British ATC is normally very proper and very professional - so different from VFR services elsewhere. (IFR ATC is pretty good in most places). So a pilot who flies reasonably regularly must be wondering about whether some phrases are right.
I know little about the microlight scene but otherwise I think really bad RT tends to belong to pilots who are only just hanging in there. Training won't help them much.
Regards a Mayday relay, I recall this is another valid option: a man in a life raft could make a Mayday on 121.50 using a handheld radio, and an airliner could relay this as a Mayday relay call. I carry a radio and a handheld GPS for exactly this reason.
I was rubbish at my RT practical exam.
My RT on my skills test was nearly as rubbish.
I learned that RT is one of the big things I really must work on, so I guess I learned something!
My RT on my skills test was nearly as rubbish.
I learned that RT is one of the big things I really must work on, so I guess I learned something!
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Women can fly and talk 
but for most men RT is hard work.
I often wondered if there was a better way to teach RT. The way it is done currently (mix it with flying training) makes one learn flying a lot slower than if no RT was needed. It really ups the workload.
In general I think one learns little in the air, especially procedural stuff like RT and instrument flight stuff. Training should be done on the ground, consolidation takes place in the air. So there should be a real RT ground school. I doubt the industry wants this however, since there is no clear charging basis for ground school (which is why most schools don't do any ground school). And the industry is what the CAA listens to.
but for most men RT is hard work.I often wondered if there was a better way to teach RT. The way it is done currently (mix it with flying training) makes one learn flying a lot slower than if no RT was needed. It really ups the workload.
In general I think one learns little in the air, especially procedural stuff like RT and instrument flight stuff. Training should be done on the ground, consolidation takes place in the air. So there should be a real RT ground school. I doubt the industry wants this however, since there is no clear charging basis for ground school (which is why most schools don't do any ground school). And the industry is what the CAA listens to.
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No it's not - how the **** can it be?
If you see a life raft, I am assuming it is not there for no reason (being part of an RT practical test), and therefore someone else is in trouble, and therefore you are relaying a Mayday.....you yourself are not in trouble are you???? You yourself are not experiencing an urgency are you?
Fortunately - your opinion doesn't count, or we'd have numerous people relaying Maydays that they haven't heard.
Luckily your opinion doesn't count......The coastguard and anyone who matters will know what you mean, even if a JAA examiner doesn't.
Last edited by englishal; 12th Jun 2006 at 08:27.
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What and When
You can only be relaying a Mayday if another station has transmitted one.
If you spot a liferaft or small boat in the water you cannot be sure if the craft requires IMMEDIATE assistance or not. Clearly, should you be concerned then the matter needs investigating urgently. An URGENCY requires a PAN! Take a scenario where you ASSUME a distress and helicopters and boats are launched to rescue. It turns out not to be the case for the Dinghy was being used for fishing. Meanwhile another genuine distress is transmitted. The Helicopter is not now able to attend immediately until it has refueled and the rescue boat is now going in the opposite direction. We now have a mess. Make the appropiate call and allow the professionals to deal with what THEY are trained to do. They do it bloody well!
As i have already explained the RT test encompasses much more than the student will normally have experienced during training. Such as the correct use of the wider system where it is sometimes found not to be understood.
If you spot a liferaft or small boat in the water you cannot be sure if the craft requires IMMEDIATE assistance or not. Clearly, should you be concerned then the matter needs investigating urgently. An URGENCY requires a PAN! Take a scenario where you ASSUME a distress and helicopters and boats are launched to rescue. It turns out not to be the case for the Dinghy was being used for fishing. Meanwhile another genuine distress is transmitted. The Helicopter is not now able to attend immediately until it has refueled and the rescue boat is now going in the opposite direction. We now have a mess. Make the appropiate call and allow the professionals to deal with what THEY are trained to do. They do it bloody well!
As i have already explained the RT test encompasses much more than the student will normally have experienced during training. Such as the correct use of the wider system where it is sometimes found not to be understood.
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MAYDAY RELAY is an acceptable term for use by sea craft, but has not found its way in to aviation RT phraseology.
In UK airspace, CAP 413 offers the following advice:
1.9
But that's not what CAP 413 says. Read it again. above.
For a sighted liferaft, you could use a MAYDAY call quite legitimately, provided you made it clear you were under no emergency on board your own aircraft. Alternatively, you might assess it as only worthy of a PAN, but that's your call. The emergency services would be more appreciative of a call and it being a false alarm rather than finding out later someone was in trouble and you thought they were only using a liferaft for fishing !!
In UK airspace, CAP 413 offers the following advice:
1.9
Relayed Emergency Message
Any aeronautical station or aircraft knowing of an emergency incident may transmit a distress message whenever such action is necessary to obtain assistance for the aircraft or vessel in distress. In such circumstances, it should be made clear that the aircraft transmitting is not itself in distress.
Example:
Aircraft G-ABCD
Aircraft G-ABCD
MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY
Milthorpe Tower G-ABCD have intercepted MAYDAY from G-BJRD
I say again G-BJRD Cessna 172 engine failure forced landing 10
miles west of Wicken VOR, 1000 feet descending, heading 120, IMC
rating, over
Milthorpe Tower G-ABCD have intercepted MAYDAY from G-BJRD
I say again G-BJRD Cessna 172 engine failure forced landing 10
miles west of Wicken VOR, 1000 feet descending, heading 120, IMC
rating, over
Milthorpe Tower
G-ABCD Milthorpe Tower Roger your relayed MAYDAY from G-BJRD
You can only be relaying a Mayday if another station has transmitted one.
For a sighted liferaft, you could use a MAYDAY call quite legitimately, provided you made it clear you were under no emergency on board your own aircraft. Alternatively, you might assess it as only worthy of a PAN, but that's your call. The emergency services would be more appreciative of a call and it being a false alarm rather than finding out later someone was in trouble and you thought they were only using a liferaft for fishing !!
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Make the appropiate call and allow the professionals to deal with what THEY are trained to do. They do it bloody well!
That might be the case in the UK and a short distance from the shore. Not the case further afield, where somebody might be quite grateful for being fished out of the water at all.
And in most of the world, there is no S&R at all. You have to hope you can raise somebody, with an EPIRB going off or by calling up an airliner 35000ft above you.
Milthorpe Tower G-ABCD have intercepted MAYDAY from G-BJRD
I say again G-BJRD Cessna 172 engine failure forced landing 10
miles west of Wicken VOR, 1000 feet descending, heading 120, IMC
rating, over
Curious why "over" if this is on VHF.
I think somebody doing fishing out of an orange liferaft needs their head examined.
But fair enough, if you can get through to somebody with a "PAN" then why not.
The most useful thing, actually, would be knowing which button on the GPS to press to set a user waypoint.
That might be the case in the UK and a short distance from the shore. Not the case further afield, where somebody might be quite grateful for being fished out of the water at all.
And in most of the world, there is no S&R at all. You have to hope you can raise somebody, with an EPIRB going off or by calling up an airliner 35000ft above you.
Milthorpe Tower G-ABCD have intercepted MAYDAY from G-BJRD
I say again G-BJRD Cessna 172 engine failure forced landing 10
miles west of Wicken VOR, 1000 feet descending, heading 120, IMC
rating, over
Curious why "over" if this is on VHF.
I think somebody doing fishing out of an orange liferaft needs their head examined.
But fair enough, if you can get through to somebody with a "PAN" then why not.
The most useful thing, actually, would be knowing which button on the GPS to press to set a user waypoint.
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MAYDAY RELAY is an acceptable term for use by sea craft, but has not found its way in to aviation RT phraseology.
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"Take a scenario where you ASSUME a distress and helicopters and boats are launched to rescue. It turns out not to be the case for the Dinghy was being used for fishing. Meanwhile another genuine distress is transmitted. The Helicopter is not now able to attend immediately until it has refueled and the rescue boat is now going in the opposite direction. We now have a mess. Make the appropiate call and allow the professionals to deal with what THEY are trained to do. They do it bloody well!"
I dont understand your point. Are you suggesting there is some magic (which I am not aware of) in a Mayday over a Pan?
In the scenario you are indicating it is indeed up to the emegency services to prioritise the calls. They will want as much information from you as possible in order to make that call.
Whilst correct RT is clearly very improtant so is common sense. You have seen a liferaft in the water or a dinghy. What do you know about what you have seen - if anything? This is the information really needed by the emergency services. They also need to know precisely where it is. Can you give them a GPS position accurately?
As to RT generally, whilst as I have said correct RT is important, it is also very easy to forget the whole purpose of the excercise - to exchange information ACCURATELY and QUICKLY. In my experience the greatest weakness in most PPLs RT is that they dont think about EXACTLY what they want to say first.
I dont understand your point. Are you suggesting there is some magic (which I am not aware of) in a Mayday over a Pan?
In the scenario you are indicating it is indeed up to the emegency services to prioritise the calls. They will want as much information from you as possible in order to make that call.
Whilst correct RT is clearly very improtant so is common sense. You have seen a liferaft in the water or a dinghy. What do you know about what you have seen - if anything? This is the information really needed by the emergency services. They also need to know precisely where it is. Can you give them a GPS position accurately?
As to RT generally, whilst as I have said correct RT is important, it is also very easy to forget the whole purpose of the excercise - to exchange information ACCURATELY and QUICKLY. In my experience the greatest weakness in most PPLs RT is that they dont think about EXACTLY what they want to say first.
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Ref: MAYDAY RELAY
As it is not in ICAO RT procedures or phraseology, I wouldn't bank on it being fully understood in the civil aviation arena worldwide. Native English speakers may put 2 and 2 together to get the '4' that you intend, but sticking to standard phraseology removes any guesswork and doubt, as well as making things clear for other listeners.
It is also internationally recognized and used.......in aviation and military.
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I have two pet stories when discussing RT with students (and pilots).
On numerous occassions I hear an aircraft, that has previously reported being at 4,000 feet, saying "Descending Two Thousand Five Hundred Feet".
I would not think it unreasonable for a native English speaker to assume that this aircraft was going to level off at an altitude of two thousand five hundred feet - a decsent of, in this scenario, 1,500 feet.
But what they actually said was "Descending Two Thousand Five Hundred Feet". So I would be equally unsurprised if somebody understood that this aircraft was descending 2,500 and would level off at an altitude of 1,500'.
The other, with tragic loss of an airframe and four crew, was the 747 approaching Kuala Lumpur - which was instructed by ATC "Descend Two Four Zero Zero Feet" (in the days when we used to digitise numbers). The crew read back "Descend to four zero zero". Their 747 hit the ground at 600amsl (thinking they still had 200 feet to go), 12 miles from the beacon they were tracking inbound towards - the MSA was 2,400 feet amsl. Apart from the RT fault, who operates a 747 at 400 amsl 12 miles from an IAF?
Heard a guy near Orlando, spending absolutely ages on a noisy RT frequency with Miami, saying over and over again that his destination was "QTS - you know, Queen Tommy Sam".
On numerous occassions I hear an aircraft, that has previously reported being at 4,000 feet, saying "Descending Two Thousand Five Hundred Feet".
I would not think it unreasonable for a native English speaker to assume that this aircraft was going to level off at an altitude of two thousand five hundred feet - a decsent of, in this scenario, 1,500 feet.
But what they actually said was "Descending Two Thousand Five Hundred Feet". So I would be equally unsurprised if somebody understood that this aircraft was descending 2,500 and would level off at an altitude of 1,500'.
The other, with tragic loss of an airframe and four crew, was the 747 approaching Kuala Lumpur - which was instructed by ATC "Descend Two Four Zero Zero Feet" (in the days when we used to digitise numbers). The crew read back "Descend to four zero zero". Their 747 hit the ground at 600amsl (thinking they still had 200 feet to go), 12 miles from the beacon they were tracking inbound towards - the MSA was 2,400 feet amsl. Apart from the RT fault, who operates a 747 at 400 amsl 12 miles from an IAF?
Heard a guy near Orlando, spending absolutely ages on a noisy RT frequency with Miami, saying over and over again that his destination was "QTS - you know, Queen Tommy Sam".
