RT test
Hovering AND talking
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Whirlygig, learn to use that stick with your left hand!
Ah-ha! But flying a left hand PIC Schweizer, one does that to change frequencies, altimeter, DI etc!!!
However, it's not pretty flying! Perhaps I'll find it easier to learn to right with my left hand!Cheers
Whirls
to be honest, i think the RT element should be incorporated into the skills test. afterall its on the ground school element.
Most people learn their RT from coppying others, unfortunately it is more common to copy the wrong things rather than the right ones, especially if you don't fly very often.
If your RT is good then right down a full Mayday call in the correct order. Now if you get that right, assume that you have just received one, nobody else heard it! Do you know what to do and how to issue an imposition of silence? It could be your shout, it doesn't have to be the ground station.
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ok i might sound a lil over confident but i can make a mayday call and to be honest, when it comes to it, who does say a full mayday call in the correct order?
i think there was a disscussion here about a sound file of a guy on VFR who flew into cloud and started spinning. first of all how he flew into a massive cloud beats me...secondly i thought u only spin if the aircraft stalls while being out of balance. point is, i dont think anyone makes a full mayday call in the correct order when in emergency.
and whirlybird, i will hold you to that flight in your chopper, i have yet to fly in a helicopter and an engine failure in my maiden flight sounds good.....
i think there was a disscussion here about a sound file of a guy on VFR who flew into cloud and started spinning. first of all how he flew into a massive cloud beats me...secondly i thought u only spin if the aircraft stalls while being out of balance. point is, i dont think anyone makes a full mayday call in the correct order when in emergency.
Originally Posted by Whirlybird
Oh, and if you ever want a demo of what helicopters do in the event of engine failure, come and fly with me and I'll show you!
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The Original Whirly
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No problem. I instruct at Sheffield and Tatenhill, and neither are a million miles from Manchester. I spend quite a lot of my time demonstrating auto-rotations during trial lessons to doubting f/w pilots. 
Avoid imitations
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Just be wary of swapping hands on the controls in a helicopter....in the cruise it's just like a fixed wing but in the hover.....it can get suddenly become very "interesting" and expensive 
I can elaborate......
I can elaborate......
when it comes to it, who does say a full mayday call in the correct order?
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Walk and Talk
For most students the full experience of RT procedures cannot be fully covered in the air without considerable expense. However the RT test is not particularly stretching with regard to RT chatter for the candidate should know all of that and will have passed the written exam and will have demonstrated that part of their knowledge during training.
To inform pilotho better.
The RT test is this; Assume you are a basic PPL without any additional ratings flying a simple GA single engined aeroplane. The Examiner acts as each controller to whom you speak. You will be given a schematic map of a flight which will start or end at a controlled aerodrome and will route through a MATZ and also a control zone of a particular class - obtain the correct clearance. You will be given a completed pilots navigation log. The test is NOT concerned with your navigation skills! Throughout the flight YOU will decide to WHOM you speak, WHEN and for WHAT REASON by choosing the appropiate service. You will be given a sheet of comms/nav stations with the frequencies and a brief description. You WILL experience a 'DISTRESS' or need to relay such, however prior to the test you will not know which. You will also experience an 'URGENCY' situation. In both cases you will need to cancel each appropiately in order that the flight may be completed. You will also be required to obtain an enroute VDF bearing; QDM/QTE/QDR as you choose. A planned diversion (within the pilots log) also takes place.
It will be assumed that your radio phraseology is of standard. YOU can only prove otherwise! The test is primarily assessing your knowledge of the ATC system and how best to use it. You will be given sufficient time to plan following a briefing. It is the RT preflight planning which in my experience is the weakest element of most candidates. This leads to requesting from the wrong ATC unit an inappropiate service having selected the wrong frequency from a published list. CAP 413 is the guiding document. The schools that send to me their students regularly know the format well and prepare their students. Where this hasn't happened many students struggle with the R/T planning. Be sure that you are prepared well before the day and then it is all very straight forward.
Expect to be with the Examiner at least three hours. The preflight briefing and your planning will take at least one hour. The Test takes anything between thirty minutes and one hour depending on the candidate. The candidate may if they so wish use the full duration of the flight plan time which is something like 1 hour and 45 minutes. Afterward there will be a post flight debrief and paperwork. You must take with you proof of having passed the written exam. A partly completed license application form showing the successful pass is normal.
Hope this has helped.
To inform pilotho better.
The RT test is this; Assume you are a basic PPL without any additional ratings flying a simple GA single engined aeroplane. The Examiner acts as each controller to whom you speak. You will be given a schematic map of a flight which will start or end at a controlled aerodrome and will route through a MATZ and also a control zone of a particular class - obtain the correct clearance. You will be given a completed pilots navigation log. The test is NOT concerned with your navigation skills! Throughout the flight YOU will decide to WHOM you speak, WHEN and for WHAT REASON by choosing the appropiate service. You will be given a sheet of comms/nav stations with the frequencies and a brief description. You WILL experience a 'DISTRESS' or need to relay such, however prior to the test you will not know which. You will also experience an 'URGENCY' situation. In both cases you will need to cancel each appropiately in order that the flight may be completed. You will also be required to obtain an enroute VDF bearing; QDM/QTE/QDR as you choose. A planned diversion (within the pilots log) also takes place.
It will be assumed that your radio phraseology is of standard. YOU can only prove otherwise! The test is primarily assessing your knowledge of the ATC system and how best to use it. You will be given sufficient time to plan following a briefing. It is the RT preflight planning which in my experience is the weakest element of most candidates. This leads to requesting from the wrong ATC unit an inappropiate service having selected the wrong frequency from a published list. CAP 413 is the guiding document. The schools that send to me their students regularly know the format well and prepare their students. Where this hasn't happened many students struggle with the R/T planning. Be sure that you are prepared well before the day and then it is all very straight forward.
Expect to be with the Examiner at least three hours. The preflight briefing and your planning will take at least one hour. The Test takes anything between thirty minutes and one hour depending on the candidate. The candidate may if they so wish use the full duration of the flight plan time which is something like 1 hour and 45 minutes. Afterward there will be a post flight debrief and paperwork. You must take with you proof of having passed the written exam. A partly completed license application form showing the successful pass is normal.
Hope this has helped.
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I recall 2 things from mine:
I encountered a life raft floating in the water below, and had to make a MAYDAY call on its behalf.
The duration of the "virtual flight" is far less than that of the actual flight, and it's hard to get into one's head that one is expected to contact the next unit after 30 seconds rather than after 30 minutes as would be the case if flying the real distances. I confused the instructor because I was simulating long pauses to account for the next 20 mile leg
They tape it and keep the tape for a year; it is retrieved if you kill yourself (etc) and RT issues are suspected. Not sure what the value of this would be, since IMHO one's RT is only as good as one's currency.
I encountered a life raft floating in the water below, and had to make a MAYDAY call on its behalf.
The duration of the "virtual flight" is far less than that of the actual flight, and it's hard to get into one's head that one is expected to contact the next unit after 30 seconds rather than after 30 minutes as would be the case if flying the real distances. I confused the instructor because I was simulating long pauses to account for the next 20 mile leg
They tape it and keep the tape for a year; it is retrieved if you kill yourself (etc) and RT issues are suspected. Not sure what the value of this would be, since IMHO one's RT is only as good as one's currency.
Hovering AND talking
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I encountered a life raft floating in the water below, and had to make a MAYDAY call on its behalf.
The planning time is vital - you can write down what you want (as you would on a kneeboard) such as the order of a MAYDAY.
However much time they give you for planning ( and as I recall it wasn't long enough - didn't seem like an hour and 45!), use that time - rememeber the 5 Ps - Perfect Planning Prevent Pathetic Performance.
Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
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Just be wary of swapping hands on the controls in a helicopter....in the cruise it's just like a fixed wing but in the hover.....it can get suddenly become very "interesting" and expensive
I can elaborate
I can elaborate
MGP
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RT
Actually, the dinghy situation is a PAN call rather than a MAYDAY. The examiner has to keep written papers for three years in case the CAA wishes to check them. This isn't very often. I have been examining for more than twenty years and not had a request-yet.
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How long
It is not for the RT Examiner to decide the pace of the test. If the candidate wishes to use real time then they may without explanation. I explain this to all candidates during the pre-brief so they do not feel under pressure to move on without being ready.
Recording the test is an option of the Examiner. It is not mandatory and I rarely do it. When i have recorded all or part of a test it is to be a helpful tool during a post-flight brief rather than evidence of failure. If a candidate arrives with shortcomings and leaves without them i am satisfied. All this is in accordance withe the CAA brief to Examiners.
Any incident that appears to need assistance requires a 'PAN' call.
Recording the test is an option of the Examiner. It is not mandatory and I rarely do it. When i have recorded all or part of a test it is to be a helpful tool during a post-flight brief rather than evidence of failure. If a candidate arrives with shortcomings and leaves without them i am satisfied. All this is in accordance withe the CAA brief to Examiners.
Any incident that appears to need assistance requires a 'PAN' call.
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regards to why i think its a waste of time, is that i been using RT all the way through my training and indeed within the skills test. therefore i think that would have shown i am proficient with RT.
FF
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3 hours? At Cabair I had a 10 minute briefing, 10 minutes of planning time (more was available; I was told I could write down a script for the entire thing, though I chose not to), and about 20 minutes for the test. After reading the 3 hours comment I expected to see others chime in with how this seemed a long time, so perhaps mine was the unusual one.
Also, I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion that good RT has anything to do with currency. Much of the bad RT I've heard seems to spring from bad habbits, repeated so often that they don't imagine it could be wrong. 1 hour every 2 years with an instructor isn't enough to retrain it out of a frequent flyer's memory and there seems to be no other mechanism for correcting someone.
Also, I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion that good RT has anything to do with currency. Much of the bad RT I've heard seems to spring from bad habbits, repeated so often that they don't imagine it could be wrong. 1 hour every 2 years with an instructor isn't enough to retrain it out of a frequent flyer's memory and there seems to be no other mechanism for correcting someone.
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How long
Yes of course if the candidate is very much on the ball then it can be completed very quickly. I suspect Drauk that your either a very talented and exceptional learner or perhaps you already had considerable experience before taking your RT test.
10 minutes of planning and the test completed in 20 minutes is hardly a pace that an average student yet to graduate will achieve. Whatever it is not for the Examiner to push the pace. The purpose of the event is an attempt to eradicate the poor RT of which you speak. Like any test it is best when the candidate leaves also having learned from the experience. With any written exam that they will undertake they will only have had to demonstrate 75% of the knowledge questioned. A practical test will also require a degree of error by the student and may reveal a weakness in knowledge which must be assessed and should then be debriefed. The Examiner must then decide whether it is a simple matter and resolved by debriefing or whether further training or study is required. 10 + 20 and out the door is hardly providing the candidate with the service that they should expect and for which they pay.
An oft used quideline for planning a trip is that the student will take twice as long as the flight duration being planned will be. Quite typical in my experience. It will not be unreasonable for an RT candidate to take 40-60 minutes to plan the RT test. I also recommend that they plan a script for the RT situation is unusual being sat in a room using a box of tricks. It is very easy to become lost in time.
10 minutes of planning and the test completed in 20 minutes is hardly a pace that an average student yet to graduate will achieve. Whatever it is not for the Examiner to push the pace. The purpose of the event is an attempt to eradicate the poor RT of which you speak. Like any test it is best when the candidate leaves also having learned from the experience. With any written exam that they will undertake they will only have had to demonstrate 75% of the knowledge questioned. A practical test will also require a degree of error by the student and may reveal a weakness in knowledge which must be assessed and should then be debriefed. The Examiner must then decide whether it is a simple matter and resolved by debriefing or whether further training or study is required. 10 + 20 and out the door is hardly providing the candidate with the service that they should expect and for which they pay.
An oft used quideline for planning a trip is that the student will take twice as long as the flight duration being planned will be. Quite typical in my experience. It will not be unreasonable for an RT candidate to take 40-60 minutes to plan the RT test. I also recommend that they plan a script for the RT situation is unusual being sat in a room using a box of tricks. It is very easy to become lost in time.
[yo]u could know all about the subject but have no idea what they would ask!
Ginger
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could i ever revise for this??
If you are talking about the written, then yes. The trick is that Roger does not mean you understood the message as one answer I came across suggested; in other words the CAP413 related answers have to be verbatim.
After reading the 3 hours comment I expected to see others chime in with how this seemed a long time, so perhaps mine was the unusual one.
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Actually, the dinghy situation is a PAN call rather than a MAYDAY.
Anyway, I think it is a waste of time. I think the examiner on the flight test should be able to assess all aspects of your flying skills, including RT, and make a judgement as to whether you are competent to fly and communicate. If not, then maybe some remedial training in an RT simulator and seperate RT test should be required. RT is one of those things you can't learn in 45 hours and be expected to be British Airways correct each time. You learn by doing.......