How to get more controled airspace
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From: Dublin
I think this is all about reasonable priority.
As stated above, the paragraph that Flower referred me to, seems to give priority to aircraft on a flight plan following a normal routing. It does not give priority to Commercial, Heavy, IFR etc traffic. At least not as far as I see. I could be wrong.....this is new to me.
As someone who routinely flys with a flight plan (almost all of my flights have a flight plan), it would seem that I should be given equal priority to the commercial traffic. This isn't what happens in practise.
What if every GA flight, filed a flight plan, and followed "normal routings", would we all be treated as equals? Unlikely, or that is what everyone would be doing now.
I think the problem is two fold.
1. Many PPL's have never routinely operated from a controlled field, and are a little frightened of ATC. They plan their flights to remain in Class G, so that they don't have to talk to "big professional ATC", but are happy to call the radio at a local grass strip. This needs to be better covered by the PPL training, and also the PPL's themselves need work on their post skills test experience.
2. ATC providing instructions outside controlled airspace, that prioritises CAT over GA, and refusing transits (or delaying so much that it amounts to a refusal). Most GA pilots would be happy to accept a request to turn a little bit, or climb/descent a little to accommodate someone else. Being told to orbit while someone else goes through (in class G) is a little much, and likely to result in the pilot (not unreasonably) not calling next time.
More freely available RIS would defiantly encourage pilots to call (and hand overs). However I understand this is a manpower issue, and not necessarily in the power of the ATCer to solve.
dp
As stated above, the paragraph that Flower referred me to, seems to give priority to aircraft on a flight plan following a normal routing. It does not give priority to Commercial, Heavy, IFR etc traffic. At least not as far as I see. I could be wrong.....this is new to me.
As someone who routinely flys with a flight plan (almost all of my flights have a flight plan), it would seem that I should be given equal priority to the commercial traffic. This isn't what happens in practise.
What if every GA flight, filed a flight plan, and followed "normal routings", would we all be treated as equals? Unlikely, or that is what everyone would be doing now.
I think the problem is two fold.
1. Many PPL's have never routinely operated from a controlled field, and are a little frightened of ATC. They plan their flights to remain in Class G, so that they don't have to talk to "big professional ATC", but are happy to call the radio at a local grass strip. This needs to be better covered by the PPL training, and also the PPL's themselves need work on their post skills test experience.
2. ATC providing instructions outside controlled airspace, that prioritises CAT over GA, and refusing transits (or delaying so much that it amounts to a refusal). Most GA pilots would be happy to accept a request to turn a little bit, or climb/descent a little to accommodate someone else. Being told to orbit while someone else goes through (in class G) is a little much, and likely to result in the pilot (not unreasonably) not calling next time.
More freely available RIS would defiantly encourage pilots to call (and hand overs). However I understand this is a manpower issue, and not necessarily in the power of the ATCer to solve.
dp
Joined: May 2006
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From: UK
Originally Posted by slim_slag
I quite agree Porco, we all make mistakes, and nothing wrong with that per se. I guess the point I was making was the controllers stuffed up, and they punished the GA pilot and not the commercial operation. What should have happened is the jet should have been sent around, the jet jockey would throw his toys out the the pram, and the controllers advised of a mistake in a no blame manner. So next time a light aircraft turns up having agreed to pay the charges for a professional service, the controllers get it a bit better. If they get away with it, there is no incentive to change. But I still like controllers 
But we don't look at it that way, we're just after the safest solution to the problem and that is usually to break off the one behind. I'm sure the atco in the scenario you describe thought they were dealing with the problem in the safest way for all as well. Introducing language talking about punishing people doesn't do anything but possibly unnecessarily inflame any debate.
I think ultimately we'll probably just have to agree to disagree
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From: UK
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
Porco Rosso, two points on that quote. The pilot in Class G is under no legal obligation to make RTF contact with an adjacent ATC agency (this is what the original point was all about). If he does opt to make contact, it is up to him to request a service and he retains the option to refuse a service or instruction. No pilot with an ounce of common sense would refuse an ATC instruction if safety were the issue. Unfortunately, it appears that GA is increasingly disadvantaged by delays / holding / re-routing for purely commercial considerations of airlines.
Is the safest option a minor re-route or maybe an orbit for a one ton aircraft at 90 knots or a two hundred ton aircraft at 250 knots?
The latter covers an awful lot of countryside.
Someone has to make the decision, whichever way the atco goes the other side will think they were disadvantaged so it's a lose/lose situation for ATC.
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From: ...back of the drag curve
I wish I'd read this earlier.
I agree with Beagle, who as always, has a common sense view. He should get an OBE. Needs to drag himself out of the 50s though.....
Commercial outfits do not have priority over the rest of the airspace users in Class G airspace. We are all here to fit in and exist together. And ATC units do not have the right to 'control' anything outside their airspace, despite what some of them might think. Southend, Manston to name a few in the SE.... If they want to protect their 1 movement a day ILS trafiic, get a Control Zone. I do however, advocate radio contact to tell them you are there if you are radio equipped (And I'll defend my right to remain non-radio if I choose in Class G)
If operators can't, or won't pay to use airports inside CAS, then their pilot's need to look out of the window for that uncontrolled GA traffic that has a perfect right to be there. I wonder how many pilots advocating overcontrolling were once humble GA pilots before they got their first job in the LHS?
If it's Class G, it's see and avoid, end of subject and I'll fight to keep it that way for as long as I work in a position where I can..
I agree with Beagle, who as always, has a common sense view. He should get an OBE. Needs to drag himself out of the 50s though.....
Commercial outfits do not have priority over the rest of the airspace users in Class G airspace. We are all here to fit in and exist together. And ATC units do not have the right to 'control' anything outside their airspace, despite what some of them might think. Southend, Manston to name a few in the SE.... If they want to protect their 1 movement a day ILS trafiic, get a Control Zone. I do however, advocate radio contact to tell them you are there if you are radio equipped (And I'll defend my right to remain non-radio if I choose in Class G)
If operators can't, or won't pay to use airports inside CAS, then their pilot's need to look out of the window for that uncontrolled GA traffic that has a perfect right to be there. I wonder how many pilots advocating overcontrolling were once humble GA pilots before they got their first job in the LHS?
If it's Class G, it's see and avoid, end of subject and I'll fight to keep it that way for as long as I work in a position where I can..
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by slim_slag
At less than 2 mile final he was sent around because a commercial jet who was number two to land was coming up behind.
This pilot though ATC were great, so I sort of questioned him, but he still thought ATC were great so I thought he had a good time so why introduce doubts. Me, I'd have been cursing them as I followed all their instruction to the letter,
This pilot though ATC were great, so I sort of questioned him, but he still thought ATC were great so I thought he had a good time so why introduce doubts. Me, I'd have been cursing them as I followed all their instruction to the letter,
PPL was told "Keep it tight" and was passed the distance and type of the inbound. PPL then proceeds to fly normal circuit, normal speed with heavy boy tearing up behind?
I'm not saying that's what happened - but it does happen that way. This Flying / ATC relationship is a two way street. If you can't accept something a little out of the ordinary then tell me and I'll formulate another plan. On the same basis if I've got a first or early solo in the circuit and it looks like a dead ringer from early on I'll ask the radar person for a couple of extra miles to make sure it works.
Slim - come and watch some day at a busy, combined GA and Commercial unit. I guarantee you'll leave with a slightly different opinion.
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From: UK
Originally Posted by Chilli Monster
Can I point you to another possibility?
PPL was told "Keep it tight" and was passed the distance and type of the inbound. PPL then proceeds to fly normal circuit, normal speed with heavy boy tearing up behind?
Slim - come and watch some day at a busy, combined GA and Commercial unit. I guarantee you'll leave with a slightly different opinion.
PPL was told "Keep it tight" and was passed the distance and type of the inbound. PPL then proceeds to fly normal circuit, normal speed with heavy boy tearing up behind?
Slim - come and watch some day at a busy, combined GA and Commercial unit. I guarantee you'll leave with a slightly different opinion.
The first point, goodness how many times has that happened, far more times than I care to remember.
And again I concur , all those criticising visit a unit and see just what goes on.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Originally Posted by Porco Rosso
I wouldn't necessarily consider it purely commercial considerations.
Is the safest option a minor re-route or maybe an orbit for a one ton aircraft at 90 knots or a two hundred ton aircraft at 250 knots?
The latter covers an awful lot of countryside.
Someone has to make the decision, whichever way the atco goes the other side will think they were disadvantaged so it's a lose/lose situation for ATC.
Is the safest option a minor re-route or maybe an orbit for a one ton aircraft at 90 knots or a two hundred ton aircraft at 250 knots?
The latter covers an awful lot of countryside.
Someone has to make the decision, whichever way the atco goes the other side will think they were disadvantaged so it's a lose/lose situation for ATC.
In any event, I don't consider a 90 degree track change or a course reversal in class G to be a minor re-route. This has happened to me on a number of occasions, even when I have been in sight of the other traffic and quite happy to make my own separation on a see and be seen basis, as I am entitled and required to do. I also carry passengers who are on a tight schedule, btw; I'm not flying GA for pleasure. Often the man who signs my pay cheque is actually sitting in the aircraft
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From: UK
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
You're missing the point. In Class G it isn't a decision for an ATCO to make.
From the section in the AIP dealing with airspace classification, specifically with Class G;
Note 1: Where Air Traffic Control Units provide ATS to traffic outside Controlled Airspace, separation may be provided between known flights.
Note 2: Aircraft receiving services from Air Traffic Control Units are expected to comply with clearances and instructions unless the pilot advises otherwise.
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From: UK
"Slim - come and watch some day at a busy, combined GA and Commercial unit. I guarantee you'll leave with a slightly different opinion."
I have, but it didnt change my perception.
On the whole I think ATCO do a terrific job - BUT the perception remains their priority is commercial trafic.
It seems to me absolutely clear from this thread most GA pilots would struggle to find a single occasion when AT is really trying to accomodate their needs. Zone transits are given only if it provides NO interference with commercial users, RIS outside CAS is only given if the workload is low, overhead transits at the larger airports are never given, and zone transits are only approved after the envitable "remain outside of controlled airspace, I will call you". Please someone tell me this is not their experience.
I have asked Gatwick on a number of occasions for a zone transit via their overhead - it has never been granted - why?
I have, but it didnt change my perception.
On the whole I think ATCO do a terrific job - BUT the perception remains their priority is commercial trafic.
It seems to me absolutely clear from this thread most GA pilots would struggle to find a single occasion when AT is really trying to accomodate their needs. Zone transits are given only if it provides NO interference with commercial users, RIS outside CAS is only given if the workload is low, overhead transits at the larger airports are never given, and zone transits are only approved after the envitable "remain outside of controlled airspace, I will call you". Please someone tell me this is not their experience.
I have asked Gatwick on a number of occasions for a zone transit via their overhead - it has never been granted - why?
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From: Surrey, UK.
Flying into a FISO airfield, and we're the only ones inbound, nothing in the circuit.
We'd like a straight in approach as we're coming from the west and rwy in use is 07.
We advise we'd like a straight in approach and FISO advises us that an aircraft needs to depart as he has a slot to meet so can we join deadside and circuit... (For completeness, he hasn't yet taxied onto the runway
)
Do I ignore the FISO and land anyway, or do I join deadside and circuit to land? Both options are legal.
We'd like a straight in approach as we're coming from the west and rwy in use is 07.
We advise we'd like a straight in approach and FISO advises us that an aircraft needs to depart as he has a slot to meet so can we join deadside and circuit... (For completeness, he hasn't yet taxied onto the runway
)Do I ignore the FISO and land anyway, or do I join deadside and circuit to land? Both options are legal.
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From: UK
Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
I have asked Gatwick on a number of occasions for a zone transit via their overhead - it has never been granted - why?
The ultimate arbiter for whether or not a transit through the KK overhead is approved or not is the tower controller, not the radar man.
When you call up and, during the pass your message bit, say you want to transit via the overhead it's almost inevitable that you'll be told initially to "remain outside CAS" as the radar man is not allowed to approve your request without getting on the phone to the tower controller.
Radar man may have no issues with your request but if tower say no for their own reasons then unfortunately no is the answer.
Assuming tower man says yes there are at least two further phone calls to be made by radar man. One to the tower supervisor to have your details for the crossing put in to the EFPS system in the tower and then as you get closer to the airfield another call to the tower controller to identify you to him on the ATM (mini radar) in the tower.
I guess if it's busy and workload is an issue then the radar man may decline due to the additional workload imposed.
Anyway, I've had a fair degree of success going through the KK overhead, so keep trying
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
I have, but it didnt change my perception.
On the whole I think ATCO do a terrific job - BUT the perception remains their priority is commercial trafic.
It seems to me absolutely clear from this thread most GA pilots would struggle to find a single occasion when AT is really trying to accomodate their needs.
Zone transits are given only if it provides NO interference with commercial users,
RIS outside CAS is only given if the workload is low,
overhead transits at the larger airports are never given,
zone transits are only approved after the envitable "remain outside of controlled airspace, I will call you".
If this thread has shown anything it has proved that the vast majority of PPL's who scream and bellow about how unfairly they are treated by ATC have no conception about many of the factors that affect just how traffic is handled in the terminal environment.
I'm sorry if someone's been held in the circuit. It's not my fault that Brussels has just changed the slot on a departure and I've got to get them away in the next 90 seconds otherwise they wait another hour and a half.
I'm sorry if you get held at the holding point because you want to save on taxying, but I can't get you away because you need 3 minutes separation from the previous departure and the queue at the hold who I can shoot off 1 or 2 minutes apart isn't going to allow that.
I'm sorry you can't get a RIS because the military have gone home for the weekend, and you want a RIS on a CAVOK day when every man and his dog wants to call at the same time as Joe Public want to go on their summer hols, or come back from them.
Get the picture?
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 8th June 2006 at 15:57.
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From: Oxford
Rustle, surely that's got nothing to do with airmanship, it's called manners? You'd be quite entitled to make that straight-in, but good manners require you to imagine yourself in his position; he has a slot to make, you will lose him his slot if you make the straight-in, and all you have to lose is another 5 minutes in the air (longer if you have to make a big circuit, depending on local procedures).
Tim
Tim
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Oh my gosh - we are really getting into the small print now! "Note 2: Aircraft receiving services from Air Traffic Control Units are expected to comply with clearances and instructions unless the pilot advises otherwise."
In Class G its a see and be seen environment. A larger aircraft does NOT have right of way whilst positioning outside controlled airspace, except in accordance with the rules of the air - whatever the aircraft size, weight, POB or name painted on the hull.
If I'm requesting a Flight Information Service, that is all I'm asking for, not to be given radar headings to give preference to a "home based" aircraft as if I'm under radar control inside Class A, especially to "avoid" an aircraft I've already seen and said I am well clear of.
A controller giving a FIS is only expected to pass traffic information to the pilot requesting the service, not to "take control" of it. Even under Radar Information, a controller shouldn't try to mandate one particular aircraft to give way to another. It's up to the pilot to take what action, if any, he thinks necessary under the rules of the air and common sense. Radar advisory can be offered or requested, in which case, the pilot should expect headings etc - that's what he is agreeing to. Everything else is by negotiation, hopefully to the mutual benefit and safety of all.
Most ATC personnel at the major airports certainly operate in this manner - but a few at some minor airfields don't. As well as the pilot who doesn't keep clear of CAS or make a radio call when prudent, it's this minority in ATC who make a rod for their own back, which impacts on everyone eventually.
BTW, I'm playing Devil's advocate here - I always do EXACTLY what a controller requests, as politely, accurately and as promptly as possible - even when it inconveniences me in Class G. Sometimes, by listening out, looking out, watching TCAS and building a big picture before I make my request, I have already done what I can to make his, or her, life as easy as possible.
Never call 'em "Sir" though.
In Class G its a see and be seen environment. A larger aircraft does NOT have right of way whilst positioning outside controlled airspace, except in accordance with the rules of the air - whatever the aircraft size, weight, POB or name painted on the hull.
If I'm requesting a Flight Information Service, that is all I'm asking for, not to be given radar headings to give preference to a "home based" aircraft as if I'm under radar control inside Class A, especially to "avoid" an aircraft I've already seen and said I am well clear of.
A controller giving a FIS is only expected to pass traffic information to the pilot requesting the service, not to "take control" of it. Even under Radar Information, a controller shouldn't try to mandate one particular aircraft to give way to another. It's up to the pilot to take what action, if any, he thinks necessary under the rules of the air and common sense. Radar advisory can be offered or requested, in which case, the pilot should expect headings etc - that's what he is agreeing to. Everything else is by negotiation, hopefully to the mutual benefit and safety of all.
Most ATC personnel at the major airports certainly operate in this manner - but a few at some minor airfields don't. As well as the pilot who doesn't keep clear of CAS or make a radio call when prudent, it's this minority in ATC who make a rod for their own back, which impacts on everyone eventually.
BTW, I'm playing Devil's advocate here - I always do EXACTLY what a controller requests, as politely, accurately and as promptly as possible - even when it inconveniences me in Class G. Sometimes, by listening out, looking out, watching TCAS and building a big picture before I make my request, I have already done what I can to make his, or her, life as easy as possible.
Never call 'em "Sir" though.
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From: Surrey, UK.
Originally Posted by tmmorris
Rustle, surely that's got nothing to do with airmanship, it's called manners?
Tim
Tim
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by rustle
Do I ignore the FISO and land anyway, or do I join deadside and circuit to land? Both options are legal.
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From: UK
We were recently given an instruction that on hearing the request for a zone transit that we were to use without exception the phrase "remain outside CAS". Why ? because so many out there seem to believe once they have requested the zone transit from ATC and are in communication that they may just transit the zone.
Porco Rosso has already explained the lengthy process which can take place at many ATC units prior to a clearance being given.
As for CAT having priority over other flights well yes MATS part 1 again tells us that they do, Dublin Pilot I take it you were filing VFR flight plans not flying airways and thus not going normal routes? if so then you come below normal flights in the priority stakes.
As we say time and time again it is a lot simpler and safer to ask a PA28 to orbit than a B747.
IF you use a unit operating a LARS service they have a dedicated controller juts for you working their socks off trying to give you a good service, if you call up a unit without LARS then there can be a very good chance you will have a very minimum service because of workload issues but you can bet they will do everything they can subject workload to help you out.
WE have limited staffing, LARS is so inadequately funded that it is a wonder any Airport offers a LARS service at all, and so we prioritise. I am sorry if you think you are the poor relation but as with everything in life you get what you pay for, the Airlines pay us, the average PPL does not.
Porco Rosso has already explained the lengthy process which can take place at many ATC units prior to a clearance being given.
As for CAT having priority over other flights well yes MATS part 1 again tells us that they do, Dublin Pilot I take it you were filing VFR flight plans not flying airways and thus not going normal routes? if so then you come below normal flights in the priority stakes.
As we say time and time again it is a lot simpler and safer to ask a PA28 to orbit than a B747.
IF you use a unit operating a LARS service they have a dedicated controller juts for you working their socks off trying to give you a good service, if you call up a unit without LARS then there can be a very good chance you will have a very minimum service because of workload issues but you can bet they will do everything they can subject workload to help you out.
WE have limited staffing, LARS is so inadequately funded that it is a wonder any Airport offers a LARS service at all, and so we prioritise. I am sorry if you think you are the poor relation but as with everything in life you get what you pay for, the Airlines pay us, the average PPL does not.