How to get more controled airspace
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How to get more controled airspace
Last week when flying into a regonal airport in very good VMC I was vectored all over the place to avoid a light aircraft , this added about 4 min to the flight. Now that might not seem very much to most of you but the cost to my bosses of an extra 4 min of flying in a 78,000Kg jet won't be lost.
The guy was perfectly within his rights to be flying in the class G airspace without talking to anyone but as he had a transponder with 7000/C showing he would I think have a VHF com and a quick word with the ATC unit could has avoided a lot of extra flying for me and the Easyjet A319 that was following without undue disruption of his flight.
No doubt if the press got hold of this the headlines would read "Holiday jet diverted in near miss terror" and the bean counters would be pushing for yet more controlled airspace and using safety as there excuse to save a bit more money. As it happend at no time did the safety of any aircraft become an issue in this case. But if these inccidents continue the pressure for more airspace to be taken from GA pilots will gain credibility and class G airspace will be lost.
Please remember that places like Coventry, Bristol And Doncaster are no longer sleepy hollow but have a lot of low cost traffic so please talk to the ATC units and help to keep YOUR airspace class G.
The guy was perfectly within his rights to be flying in the class G airspace without talking to anyone but as he had a transponder with 7000/C showing he would I think have a VHF com and a quick word with the ATC unit could has avoided a lot of extra flying for me and the Easyjet A319 that was following without undue disruption of his flight.
No doubt if the press got hold of this the headlines would read "Holiday jet diverted in near miss terror" and the bean counters would be pushing for yet more controlled airspace and using safety as there excuse to save a bit more money. As it happend at no time did the safety of any aircraft become an issue in this case. But if these inccidents continue the pressure for more airspace to be taken from GA pilots will gain credibility and class G airspace will be lost.
Please remember that places like Coventry, Bristol And Doncaster are no longer sleepy hollow but have a lot of low cost traffic so please talk to the ATC units and help to keep YOUR airspace class G.
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But as we all know, he might actually be on the frequency of another service just not on that of the airport in question.
I know the airlines like to think they have priority, but I have been kept orbiting in the hold for 45 minutes at a well-known regional airport with fuel getting lower and lower while charter and low-cost flights diverted from other airfields barge in. Each one added to the delay to my landing because of wake turbulence and led in the end to some declaring fuel emergencies and others going somewhere else
In my view the way that the low-cost airlines behave once they start accessing regional airfields is a scandal - they bring little investment into an area but need their every whim catered to.
Look what happened when Newquay tried to get a tiny bit more from Ryanair to help in funding the airport for when the military leave. Ryanair walked away as they felt a £5 levy would trash their profits
I know the airlines like to think they have priority, but I have been kept orbiting in the hold for 45 minutes at a well-known regional airport with fuel getting lower and lower while charter and low-cost flights diverted from other airfields barge in. Each one added to the delay to my landing because of wake turbulence and led in the end to some declaring fuel emergencies and others going somewhere else
In my view the way that the low-cost airlines behave once they start accessing regional airfields is a scandal - they bring little investment into an area but need their every whim catered to.
Look what happened when Newquay tried to get a tiny bit more from Ryanair to help in funding the airport for when the military leave. Ryanair walked away as they felt a £5 levy would trash their profits
Sorry - but what makes you think that a little commercial benefit justifies an increase in CAS? Nasty little loco charters have chosen second rate airports to fly from purely to cut costs in order to offer yet cheaper flights to alcohol-fuelled oblivion for the pierced, tattoo'd, shell-suited dregs of society. That is no justification for demanding increases in CAS - these 'airlines' (I use the term loosely) chose these cheaper aerodromes in the full knowledge that the airspace between the ATZ and the airways was only Class G...
Currently, ThomsonFly are pushing for an airspace-grab at Coventry. There is no intrinsic need for this - it would merely benefit their shareholders. They should thus accept that there are only 2 options for them:
1. Accept the status quo and the associated cost.
2. Sod off somewhere else where there is the category of airspace they think they need.
There is absolutely no justification for any increase in CAS in the UK - there's plenty as it is. Tough doo-doo if it means that costs of flights to Argos, Asbestos, Domestos and the like will cost €10 more - I have absolutely no sympathy.
Currently, ThomsonFly are pushing for an airspace-grab at Coventry. There is no intrinsic need for this - it would merely benefit their shareholders. They should thus accept that there are only 2 options for them:
1. Accept the status quo and the associated cost.
2. Sod off somewhere else where there is the category of airspace they think they need.
There is absolutely no justification for any increase in CAS in the UK - there's plenty as it is. Tough doo-doo if it means that costs of flights to Argos, Asbestos, Domestos and the like will cost €10 more - I have absolutely no sympathy.
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A&C - Im sure the replies you may get on this forum are NOT personal but are a response to the way GA is treated by CAT. You only need to look at the thread on 121.5 to see why you may get castigated. I cant say I disagree with your perceived need for ATC contact but please do not expect CAT to have priority always. As Beagle said if it means a few Euros more on a ticket price then so be it. For many of us who pay huge amounts in tax and duty on AVGAS and the like and fund our flying out of TAXED income, the saving of a few tax and duty free litres of avtur for you is very low on our list of priorities.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Last week when flying into a regonal airport in very good VMC I was vectored all over the place to avoid a light aircraft
I appreciate that the speeds and momentums involved are far higher.... but there are plenty of microlights, gliders and so on which do not show up on a radar display at all, so the requirement to look out the window and avoid visually still exists even when receiving a RAS in VMC. Therefore, surely there's an argument that if your momentum is such that you are not able to safely see and avoid visually, then you ought to slow down, regardless of what type of ATC service you are receiving?
So downgrading to FIS would save you the unnecessary vectors and keep your bosses happy, save us little guys from receiving illegal "instructions" from ATC to keep out of your way, make it less likely for light aircraft to avoid talking to ATC because of these illegal "instructions", and all, arguably, with no reduction in safety!
FFF
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When I get held waiting for a transit the cost for me is significant.
When I have to route around CAS it is even more significant.
Freedom of the sky is worth protecting.
I am afraid you will not find much support here even if some of us fly commercially as well.
When I have to route around CAS it is even more significant.
Freedom of the sky is worth protecting.
I am afraid you will not find much support here even if some of us fly commercially as well.
niknak
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Thankfully Beagle's arrogance and capacity for puerile dogmatic replies of no substance are not the views of the majority of GA pilots.
As an Atco, (or Twatco as Beagle has referred to our profession in the past), all we want is pilots to call and let us know where they are and where they are going and the vast majority do.
We are in the same position as the airport described by A&C and frequently have to vector Instrument traffic away from aircraft transiting but not squawking or talking to us, everyone gets a taste of it, from Cessnas training to Boeings and Airbuses earning revenue to keep commercial aviatitors in jobs and airports busy.
Today aircraft to be delayed was an ambulance flight with a critically ill child on board which had to be repositioned back onto the approach because some clot decided to fly through the final approach at 1500ft, at 6nm, sqawking but couldn't be bothered to call us. It took approximately 20 extra track miles and a five minute delay to the ambulance flight.
Its not simply a case of CAT being afforded priority when it comes down to landings and departures sequences, but common sense and safety.
Although I sympathise enormously with the cost of GA etc, the price of fuel is a problem GA have failed to do anything about for many years and is of little relavance in this scenario.
One final point, CAS isn't the Berlin Wall, the vast majority of airports with it (outside the London area) will afford transit through it usually because in their interests to know where you are and what you're doing.
As an Atco, (or Twatco as Beagle has referred to our profession in the past), all we want is pilots to call and let us know where they are and where they are going and the vast majority do.
We are in the same position as the airport described by A&C and frequently have to vector Instrument traffic away from aircraft transiting but not squawking or talking to us, everyone gets a taste of it, from Cessnas training to Boeings and Airbuses earning revenue to keep commercial aviatitors in jobs and airports busy.
Today aircraft to be delayed was an ambulance flight with a critically ill child on board which had to be repositioned back onto the approach because some clot decided to fly through the final approach at 1500ft, at 6nm, sqawking but couldn't be bothered to call us. It took approximately 20 extra track miles and a five minute delay to the ambulance flight.
Its not simply a case of CAT being afforded priority when it comes down to landings and departures sequences, but common sense and safety.
Although I sympathise enormously with the cost of GA etc, the price of fuel is a problem GA have failed to do anything about for many years and is of little relavance in this scenario.
One final point, CAS isn't the Berlin Wall, the vast majority of airports with it (outside the London area) will afford transit through it usually because in their interests to know where you are and what you're doing.
niknak
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Althought squawking 7000, he wasn't identified, and we didn't know his intentions because he wasn't talking to anyone, and was in direct conflict with traffic under a Radar Advisory Service.
That was the problem.
That was the problem.
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I think there may be some confusion on this thread.
I dont think there is any excuse for poor airmanship.
OK you can legally be below the localiser in open FIR without communicatiing with the CAS controller but we would all accept this is poor airmanship. From my point of view I should have made this clear. Equally I trust everyone is happy you be there as long as you are communicating. After all it costs nothing.
I suspect there is also an element of education. New pilots may well not appreciate the problems this can cause in bound traffic.
I apologise if I gave an alternative impression. I assume on reflection this was the scenario A and C had in mind.
I dont think there is any excuse for poor airmanship.
OK you can legally be below the localiser in open FIR without communicatiing with the CAS controller but we would all accept this is poor airmanship. From my point of view I should have made this clear. Equally I trust everyone is happy you be there as long as you are communicating. After all it costs nothing.
I suspect there is also an element of education. New pilots may well not appreciate the problems this can cause in bound traffic.
I apologise if I gave an alternative impression. I assume on reflection this was the scenario A and C had in mind.
So, niknak, advise your aircraft under RAS (was it in VMC although operating under IFR?) that standard separation cannot be maintained due to unknown VFR traffic and ask whether the aircraft commander will accept a RIS - or even a FIS.
Testing weather today where you practise your art, was it?
Insult me as much as you like - freedom of airspace against unreasonable overcontrol is worth fighting for.
Testing weather today where you practise your art, was it?
Insult me as much as you like - freedom of airspace against unreasonable overcontrol is worth fighting for.
If you can't accept anything other than a RAS outside CAS, then don't use airports in Class G airspace. And, more particularly, don't expect changes in airspace to suit your commercial aspirations.
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Beagle I agree with much of what you say but why do you object (if you do) with the pilot at least communicating with the CAS controller. After all as I commented earlier that costs nothing. If the controller wants him to change his track he can of course politely refuse.
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Today aircraft to be delayed was an ambulance flight with a critically ill child on board which had to be repositioned back onto the approach because some clot decided to fly through the final approach at 1500ft, at 6nm, sqawking but couldn't be bothered to call us. It took approximately 20 extra track miles and a five minute delay to the ambulance flight
QDM
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7000 and mode C don't really mean a huge amount as the alt given is unverified, so treated as potentially suspect.
It can be very aggravating when you are held up by a light a/c, but a small delay isn't anything to worry about really. 4 mins of fuel in something like a 319 in descent at idle is not insignificant, but neither is it going to bankrupt a company.
Personally, I've been more annoyed by people giving their life histories over the R/T when we're just screaming through the localiser, or getting a bit hot and and high waiting for clearance to descend.
Should there be more CAS? I don't think so. Aviation in this country is overly geared towards the airlines and I think that whilst due to professional courtesy, they will get priority, they actually have no greater rights than any other type of aeroplane.
How many a/c are on the British register? What % are public transport and what % are light a/c? I think it's around 10% and 90% from an article I read. So the vast majority are being discriminated against for the financial benefit of the few.
Niknak, in all fairness I imagine the pilot who delayed the ambulance flight would be mortified if they realised what had happened and whilst airmanship dictates that he should have called. How many times has a similar flight been "dumped".
The actions of many controllers at "regional" field's, does sometimes leave a lot to be desired. I for one am tired of being told to "maintain a good lookout" when there are more than 2 /c within 50 miles of my present position. I don't need to be told what to do if all I'm doing is alerting them to my intentions whilst OCA.
Couple this to the fact that as soon as the freq. get's busy with more than a couple of commercial inbounds, giving a FIS seems to be a hindrance and we are immediately dumped to information instead of radar. I have no problem with this and actually prefer it due to the lesser amount of radio traffic, but it does mean that next time I'm less likely to use the radar facility as I assume they don't actually want to talk to me...... (I know full well the reality of this, but I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here.)
I used to be based in Coventry and so often had to run the gauntlet of mixing it with training flights. If it was a nice day and we were wide awake (a rare occurance!) then we would often downgrade to a FIS and just fly back visually, both to try and ease the controllers workload and to just enjoy the flight more ourselves. We used to have far more problems with the proximity to BHX and their commercial traffic than with light aircraft. In fact I can't ever remember having any issues with GA traffic at all. (Apart from an airprox with a glider inside the LTMA, but that's a different story!)
There are a few controllers who seem to want the whole of UK airspace to be controlled and all of us to be on pre-approved flight plans, but hopefully this will never occur. At the end of the day all controllers are there to assist every pilot who needs their help to complete a safe flight. It shouldn't matter if they are a PPL on a bimble, or a 747 with 3 engines out. Whilst airmanship dictates that you should think about other people, sometimes it is nice just to turn the radio down or off and just cruise with the sound of the engine and the wind in the wires, that's the beauty of flying and it isn't illegal quite yet.......
NN, out of interest, if the a/c concerned had been a microlight, with no transponder and limited radio facilities, would you have even noticed them? Would the delay have occured?
It can be very aggravating when you are held up by a light a/c, but a small delay isn't anything to worry about really. 4 mins of fuel in something like a 319 in descent at idle is not insignificant, but neither is it going to bankrupt a company.
Personally, I've been more annoyed by people giving their life histories over the R/T when we're just screaming through the localiser, or getting a bit hot and and high waiting for clearance to descend.
Should there be more CAS? I don't think so. Aviation in this country is overly geared towards the airlines and I think that whilst due to professional courtesy, they will get priority, they actually have no greater rights than any other type of aeroplane.
How many a/c are on the British register? What % are public transport and what % are light a/c? I think it's around 10% and 90% from an article I read. So the vast majority are being discriminated against for the financial benefit of the few.
Niknak, in all fairness I imagine the pilot who delayed the ambulance flight would be mortified if they realised what had happened and whilst airmanship dictates that he should have called. How many times has a similar flight been "dumped".
The actions of many controllers at "regional" field's, does sometimes leave a lot to be desired. I for one am tired of being told to "maintain a good lookout" when there are more than 2 /c within 50 miles of my present position. I don't need to be told what to do if all I'm doing is alerting them to my intentions whilst OCA.
Couple this to the fact that as soon as the freq. get's busy with more than a couple of commercial inbounds, giving a FIS seems to be a hindrance and we are immediately dumped to information instead of radar. I have no problem with this and actually prefer it due to the lesser amount of radio traffic, but it does mean that next time I'm less likely to use the radar facility as I assume they don't actually want to talk to me...... (I know full well the reality of this, but I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here.)
I used to be based in Coventry and so often had to run the gauntlet of mixing it with training flights. If it was a nice day and we were wide awake (a rare occurance!) then we would often downgrade to a FIS and just fly back visually, both to try and ease the controllers workload and to just enjoy the flight more ourselves. We used to have far more problems with the proximity to BHX and their commercial traffic than with light aircraft. In fact I can't ever remember having any issues with GA traffic at all. (Apart from an airprox with a glider inside the LTMA, but that's a different story!)
There are a few controllers who seem to want the whole of UK airspace to be controlled and all of us to be on pre-approved flight plans, but hopefully this will never occur. At the end of the day all controllers are there to assist every pilot who needs their help to complete a safe flight. It shouldn't matter if they are a PPL on a bimble, or a 747 with 3 engines out. Whilst airmanship dictates that you should think about other people, sometimes it is nice just to turn the radio down or off and just cruise with the sound of the engine and the wind in the wires, that's the beauty of flying and it isn't illegal quite yet.......
NN, out of interest, if the a/c concerned had been a microlight, with no transponder and limited radio facilities, would you have even noticed them? Would the delay have occured?
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 5th Jun 2006 at 22:44.
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Originally Posted by QDMQDMQDM
Today, the whole country had 50 mile VMC. Are you telling us that an ambulance flight (Helo? Kingair? Islander? Light twinjet?) could not go to an FIS, with you giving them information about the conflicting traffic, which, let us remember, was squawking 7000 Mode Charlie so you knew where it was, which way it was going and how high it was?
QDM
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Company SOPs may not allow that to happen .
and why should a pilot carrying a critically ill child have to worry about a FIS when they requested a RIS or RAS
This sounds to me like mindless application of protocols.
QDM
I stick with the guidance I was taught many years ago - avoid flying within 10 nm of an aerodrome with a published instrument approach procedure unless you're in 2 way RT contact with them.
I'm entirely happy to advise such aerodromes who I am, where I am - and what I'm doing under VFR, so that they can use that information for their purposes and reduce the mandatory separation they have to provide to IFR aircraft choosing to fly under a RAS.
Commercial operators choosing to fly into places such as Coventry, Exeter or Kirmington should understand that uncontrolled VFR flights may be operating right up to the edge of the ATZ. But pilots of such uncontrolled VFR aircraft should also use a bit of commonsense and not act in a manner which will endanger or seriously inconvenience others.
I'm entirely happy to advise such aerodromes who I am, where I am - and what I'm doing under VFR, so that they can use that information for their purposes and reduce the mandatory separation they have to provide to IFR aircraft choosing to fly under a RAS.
Commercial operators choosing to fly into places such as Coventry, Exeter or Kirmington should understand that uncontrolled VFR flights may be operating right up to the edge of the ATZ. But pilots of such uncontrolled VFR aircraft should also use a bit of commonsense and not act in a manner which will endanger or seriously inconvenience others.