Crosswind joins (uncontrolled)
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Crosswind joins (uncontrolled)
I'm sorry to have a moan, but could we all please, please think carefully before making crosswind joins at uncontrolled/FISO airfields?
Yesterday I went to one such airfield and was put in danger both on arrival and on departure by someone else joining crosswind. I had rung in advance for PPR and was told that an overhead join was the standard procedure, which is as I would have expected for an uncontrolled field unless there was some reason not to. I called at 10 miles and said I would be making an overhead join. I heard someone else call for join who I thought might arrive at around the same time so at 2 miles I called again just to let him know my range. What did he do? He cut just in front of me as I completed my deadside descending turn, and I was forced to follow his enormous downwind leg to avoid catching him up (especially as he didn't think to say whether he was planning to land or a touch-and-go...)
Worse, though, was on climbout after departure: as I approached circuit height my passenger elbowed me violently and pointed out another aircraft on our right (blocked from my view by the cowling) - yes, you've guessed it, another person joining crosswind. I had to stop the climb violently to avoid them: we were on a direct collision course and would have hit each other neatly just where the climbout track meets the crosswind track.
Please - it really isn't a good idea to join crosswind if there are other aircraft in the circuit, unless you are absolutely confident of their positions and number, which is unlikely at an uncontrolled airfield. An overhead join will cost you only a couple of minutes extra and is much, much safer.
Tim
Yesterday I went to one such airfield and was put in danger both on arrival and on departure by someone else joining crosswind. I had rung in advance for PPR and was told that an overhead join was the standard procedure, which is as I would have expected for an uncontrolled field unless there was some reason not to. I called at 10 miles and said I would be making an overhead join. I heard someone else call for join who I thought might arrive at around the same time so at 2 miles I called again just to let him know my range. What did he do? He cut just in front of me as I completed my deadside descending turn, and I was forced to follow his enormous downwind leg to avoid catching him up (especially as he didn't think to say whether he was planning to land or a touch-and-go...)
Worse, though, was on climbout after departure: as I approached circuit height my passenger elbowed me violently and pointed out another aircraft on our right (blocked from my view by the cowling) - yes, you've guessed it, another person joining crosswind. I had to stop the climb violently to avoid them: we were on a direct collision course and would have hit each other neatly just where the climbout track meets the crosswind track.
Please - it really isn't a good idea to join crosswind if there are other aircraft in the circuit, unless you are absolutely confident of their positions and number, which is unlikely at an uncontrolled airfield. An overhead join will cost you only a couple of minutes extra and is much, much safer.
Tim
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TMM
He cut just in front of me as I completed my deadside descending turn
I can understand your frustration and well done for keeping an effective lookout.
Under the circumstances, who do you think had the right of way under the rules of the air?
Edited to say that I'm interested in whether it was plain poor airmanship or illegal poor airmanship.
He cut just in front of me as I completed my deadside descending turn
I can understand your frustration and well done for keeping an effective lookout.
Under the circumstances, who do you think had the right of way under the rules of the air?
Edited to say that I'm interested in whether it was plain poor airmanship or illegal poor airmanship.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 2nd Jun 2006 at 07:10.
Precisely the same thing happened to me at Old Warden a while ago on a display day. The arrival brief included a requirement for an overhead join and a specific arrival slot....
I planned things carefully, arrive in the overhead at the right time and everything was looking fine. Then a "Golf Alfa Life History Sir, over" character in a Cherokee 180 from Thruxton announced that he was joining downwind and cut in front of me. I was then forced to follow his airliner circuit halfway to the North Sea; this delayed the landing of the Shuttlewoth Lysander...
I suppose I could have carved inside the idiot and landed as I'd planned; however, that could have caused yet more angst. The pilot of the Lysander was very polite and held off; we later chatted about it and he agreed that the poor airmanship of the other aircraft and his failure to follow the published arrival procedures were wholly to blame.
The trouble is that 'conventional' joins are being displaced by downwind joins, crosswind joins by pilots who barge their way into the aerodrome circuit rather than fitting in with other traffic - and, of course, those who insist on attempting the American 45 deg entry into downwind which is NOT a normal UK procedure. Add to all that the HUGE circuits often flown 'for noise abatement' and it's hardly surprising that aerdrome circuit procedure standards are slipping.
I planned things carefully, arrive in the overhead at the right time and everything was looking fine. Then a "Golf Alfa Life History Sir, over" character in a Cherokee 180 from Thruxton announced that he was joining downwind and cut in front of me. I was then forced to follow his airliner circuit halfway to the North Sea; this delayed the landing of the Shuttlewoth Lysander...
I suppose I could have carved inside the idiot and landed as I'd planned; however, that could have caused yet more angst. The pilot of the Lysander was very polite and held off; we later chatted about it and he agreed that the poor airmanship of the other aircraft and his failure to follow the published arrival procedures were wholly to blame.
The trouble is that 'conventional' joins are being displaced by downwind joins, crosswind joins by pilots who barge their way into the aerodrome circuit rather than fitting in with other traffic - and, of course, those who insist on attempting the American 45 deg entry into downwind which is NOT a normal UK procedure. Add to all that the HUGE circuits often flown 'for noise abatement' and it's hardly surprising that aerdrome circuit procedure standards are slipping.
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What is a crosswind join? Are you refering to a "deadside" join...i.e. an overhead but approaching from the deadside without the overhead turn?
If so then I can't see anything wrong with that, just because you're coming from the other direction, have to fly overhead, then make a descending turn I would actually say the other person is infront of you.
I often join my home airfield like this if rejoining from the south. Otherwise I have to overfly, turn once, over fly again, turn again before crossing the departure threshold and this pisses off the neighbours.
Sorry if I have misunderstood your post and the other person was actually in fact joining on a proper crosswind, then this would be pretty stupid for a number of reasons. At least if you cross the runway at circuit height you're unlikely to meet someone wh has just departed.
If so then I can't see anything wrong with that, just because you're coming from the other direction, have to fly overhead, then make a descending turn I would actually say the other person is infront of you.
I often join my home airfield like this if rejoining from the south. Otherwise I have to overfly, turn once, over fly again, turn again before crossing the departure threshold and this pisses off the neighbours.
Sorry if I have misunderstood your post and the other person was actually in fact joining on a proper crosswind, then this would be pretty stupid for a number of reasons. At least if you cross the runway at circuit height you're unlikely to meet someone wh has just departed.
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I thought one of the reasons for the huge circuits we see nowadays is that Instructors extend the circuit out to enable them to debrief the previous pi$$ poor landing... You then get less landings in, making the student pay for more flying......and then the instructor gets more hours so he can wander off to airliner land quicker..
My old, bold instructor told me that you should be able to land back on the runway if you have an engine failure downwind, and you can also see whats going on on the aerodrome.
I had to get the Cherokee I was No. 2 to at the weekend to report his position, as I couldnt even see him (on a CAVOK day!) I estimate he was downwind outside the ATZ.
My old, bold instructor told me that you should be able to land back on the runway if you have an engine failure downwind, and you can also see whats going on on the aerodrome.
I had to get the Cherokee I was No. 2 to at the weekend to report his position, as I couldnt even see him (on a CAVOK day!) I estimate he was downwind outside the ATZ.
tm
Surely, if you are departing an airfield with a normal overhead joining procedure, you should ensure that your departure climbout stays below circuit height until you are well clear of the crosswind leg. In my case, PA28 off 800m, it is not a luxury I can indulge in anyway.
Incidentally, how do you know the other aircraft had not done an overhead join and just happened to be on the crosswind leg as you were departing?
just where the climbout track meets the crosswind track.
Incidentally, how do you know the other aircraft had not done an overhead join and just happened to be on the crosswind leg as you were departing?
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There's a bit of a question here about what is meant by a "crosswind join". If you join overhead and descend deadside you will join crosswind over the upwind numbers. If you are at circuit height, you should be able to rely on departing traffic not reaching circuit height until well beyond the upwind numbers i.e somewhere around the crosswind leg of the circuit.
Anyone joining on the crosswind leg of the circuit is in a very dangerous position.
Anyone joining on the crosswind leg of the circuit is in a very dangerous position.
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I think you're saying that a descending join from dead side is OK, and I've often thought about this one. However, I've figured that with an overhead join, you're meant to be able to read the signal square, safely above circuit height. If you don't then it isn't an overhead rejoin.
). Of course doing this I am aware of people joining from different directions and would normally make sure I join behind someone already on downwind . My reasoning behind this is that say you were approaching from the North and I from the south for an OHJ, you would be crossing the downwind end of the runway 1000' or so above circuit height, and I would be crossing the upwind end at 1000' above circuit height, which would only put < 700m between us at the same altitude. I then have to make another turn to cross the downwind end of the runway, again 1000' above circuit height before comencing a descending turn to cross the upwind end at circuit height.
To me this seems a lot of low level manouvering with potential conflicts with other traffic when there is really no need. Obviously if the radio operator is not there or there is any descrepancy about which runway to use then I'd overfly the field first.
To reverse the scenario if I were in your shoes approaching from the North for an OHJ, and someone else were approaching from the south in the manner I just described, I would commence my descending turn so I slotted in behind them...
However there is no excuse to actually join on a proper cross wind as this could cause all sorts of potential conflicts, with people departing, people already in the circuit and people joining the circuit.
Cheers
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The Rules of the Air Regulations don't mandate a joining procedure. What they do say is that a joining aircraft should conform to the existing pattern and that an aircraft on final has priority over one which is not.
WR - the CAA's "standard overhead join" doesn't require you to overfly the signals square, it assumes you have radio. If you don't then you would need to.
An aircraft making an overhead join (and an aircraft in the circuit for that matter) will not be following any particular track over the ground. The standard OHJ says you should be WITHIN the upwind threshold at circuit height on crosswind and maintain circuit height until you commence the turn on to base apart from that you should expect aircraft to appear from anywhere.
Incidentally, can anyone tell me how you follow the CAA's way of doing it when the circuit is right handed?
"Maintain 1000 ft above circuit height and observe windsock and traffic. Keep aerodrome suitable distance on the left of the aircraft." "All turns must then be in the circuit direction"
Only way I can see is to do it inverted.
WR - the CAA's "standard overhead join" doesn't require you to overfly the signals square, it assumes you have radio. If you don't then you would need to.
An aircraft making an overhead join (and an aircraft in the circuit for that matter) will not be following any particular track over the ground. The standard OHJ says you should be WITHIN the upwind threshold at circuit height on crosswind and maintain circuit height until you commence the turn on to base apart from that you should expect aircraft to appear from anywhere.
Incidentally, can anyone tell me how you follow the CAA's way of doing it when the circuit is right handed?
"Maintain 1000 ft above circuit height and observe windsock and traffic. Keep aerodrome suitable distance on the left of the aircraft." "All turns must then be in the circuit direction"
Only way I can see is to do it inverted.
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Interesting thread - I've often found myself in joining in the overhead, as per instructions, descended deadside and got stitched up by pilots joining on crosswind (but not over the upwind numbers), and others joining downwind. Add to that some aircraft with high climb rates coming towards you (the worst combination the lower aircraft high-wing, and the higher a low-wing)
Given that sort of congestion it shows our good standard of airmanship that I can't remember any mid-airs in that phase of flight.
Given that sort of congestion it shows our good standard of airmanship that I can't remember any mid-airs in that phase of flight.
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Just to clarify: the first ac (as I arrived) joined correctly over the upwind numbers. As he was lower than me and on my right, he had right of way although I still think it was poor airmanship.
The second (as I departed) was well upwind of the numbers - the airfield in question doesn't have a long runway, the wind was light, and so we didn't reach circuit height (1000ft) until some way upwind. Given that and his position when we saw him (to the right and flying level) I very much doubt he was at the end of a deadside descent. Again he was on my right, so had right of way.
And the answer to a RH circuit is of course to keep the airfield on the RIGHT while joining - but of course you all knew that, didn't you...
Tim
The second (as I departed) was well upwind of the numbers - the airfield in question doesn't have a long runway, the wind was light, and so we didn't reach circuit height (1000ft) until some way upwind. Given that and his position when we saw him (to the right and flying level) I very much doubt he was at the end of a deadside descent. Again he was on my right, so had right of way.
And the answer to a RH circuit is of course to keep the airfield on the RIGHT while joining - but of course you all knew that, didn't you...
Tim
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Like Englishal, if I am joining the circuit and I am approaching from the deadside, I will call descending deadside as I approach the field and cross the numbers at circuit height. This is still a deadside descent and join, and all that is needed is a good lookout and listening to the R/T for spacing (as with any join). It is easier and safer than doing a "360" over the airfield. There is no reason to be upwind of the numbers if done correctly, as all that is missing is the turn over the airfield during the descent.
Whichever direction we join from there is always the chance that two aircraft can meet over the numbers. When this looks like it may happen I will do a more gentle turn to let the other aircraft go ahead or position accordingly. Sometimes I will make a radio call to state my intentions or to ask what theirs are.
Why was the first aircraft lower ? Your initial post suggests you were at the correct circuit height having completed your turn so he must have been below circuit height. A radio call from him to clarify his intentions would have been helpful
As for the second case, there is no excuse for such a join.
Whichever direction we join from there is always the chance that two aircraft can meet over the numbers. When this looks like it may happen I will do a more gentle turn to let the other aircraft go ahead or position accordingly. Sometimes I will make a radio call to state my intentions or to ask what theirs are.
Why was the first aircraft lower ? Your initial post suggests you were at the correct circuit height having completed your turn so he must have been below circuit height. A radio call from him to clarify his intentions would have been helpful
As for the second case, there is no excuse for such a join.
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WR
Click on the link in my post above for the CAA's poster illustrating the OHJ. It does not require you to overfly the square. (You will probably need to enlarge it to read the text)
AFIK this poster is the only source of a procedure for the OHJ but I'm happy to be corrected.
Agree with you that if an OHJ is specified then it should be adhered to. This will be eithr by an entry in the AIP or NOTAM or as an instruction by ATC. At an uncontrolled field (a/g, FISO or nothing) ROAR do not specify the type of join (nor IMHO should they) and while I for one will always comply with a request from a/g or FISO when it is safe to do so, there is no requirement on the pilot to do so.
If when you call you are told what tnmorris was, you should not assume that just because you were instructed to do an OHJ that everyone else was too.
As an aside, I was on final at Sandown a few weeks ago when I heard the a/g operator say something like "Harry, have you seen the other aircraft abiove you and to your left?"
A few seconds later I saw the pleasure flight Skyhawk appear from below me, having overtaken me from a position below me, behind and to my right, crossing below me to appear below me anbd to my left, as a result of which I had to go round. Separation? less than 300 ft IMHO. Bl@@dy stupid thing to do in order to save the price of a circuit.
Mike
Click on the link in my post above for the CAA's poster illustrating the OHJ. It does not require you to overfly the square. (You will probably need to enlarge it to read the text)
AFIK this poster is the only source of a procedure for the OHJ but I'm happy to be corrected.
Agree with you that if an OHJ is specified then it should be adhered to. This will be eithr by an entry in the AIP or NOTAM or as an instruction by ATC. At an uncontrolled field (a/g, FISO or nothing) ROAR do not specify the type of join (nor IMHO should they) and while I for one will always comply with a request from a/g or FISO when it is safe to do so, there is no requirement on the pilot to do so.
If when you call you are told what tnmorris was, you should not assume that just because you were instructed to do an OHJ that everyone else was too.
As an aside, I was on final at Sandown a few weeks ago when I heard the a/g operator say something like "Harry, have you seen the other aircraft abiove you and to your left?"
A few seconds later I saw the pleasure flight Skyhawk appear from below me, having overtaken me from a position below me, behind and to my right, crossing below me to appear below me anbd to my left, as a result of which I had to go round. Separation? less than 300 ft IMHO. Bl@@dy stupid thing to do in order to save the price of a circuit.
Mike
Last edited by Mike Cross; 2nd Jun 2006 at 16:37.
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Agreed
LASORS is not an authoritative source of information - it is guidance. There are a number of ways in which it elaborates on things and offers advice and it fails to differentiate between those things that are legal requirements and those that are advice. You can't get prosecuted for failing to follow LASORS. What you get prosecuted for is a breach of the legislation.
This discussion illustrates how people read what is in LASORS and on the OHJ poster and think it's a legal requirement and that everyone is required to comply. This can have a detrimental effect on safety because you assume that people are going to do one thing and then they (quite legally) do something else.
Mike
LASORS is not an authoritative source of information - it is guidance. There are a number of ways in which it elaborates on things and offers advice and it fails to differentiate between those things that are legal requirements and those that are advice. You can't get prosecuted for failing to follow LASORS. What you get prosecuted for is a breach of the legislation.
This discussion illustrates how people read what is in LASORS and on the OHJ poster and think it's a legal requirement and that everyone is required to comply. This can have a detrimental effect on safety because you assume that people are going to do one thing and then they (quite legally) do something else.
Mike
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If you join overhead and descend deadside you will join crosswind over the upwind numbers.
Anyone joining on the crosswind leg of the circuit is in a very dangerous position.
OK - So what is the difference ? apart from a descending 360 degree turn to get to the same position ?
If you join overhead or go straight to crosswind at cct height you will get to exactly the same place. I can see that if you have not positively identified the airfield and ensured that you are at the right place prior to entering the crosswind then that is a problem but if you know the airport and are spot on with your positioning, radio call, speed and lookout then getting rid of a 360 degree descending turn in a potentially busy circuit must be more efficient and safer ?
Anyone joining on the crosswind leg of the circuit is in a very dangerous position.
OK - So what is the difference ? apart from a descending 360 degree turn to get to the same position ?
If you join overhead or go straight to crosswind at cct height you will get to exactly the same place. I can see that if you have not positively identified the airfield and ensured that you are at the right place prior to entering the crosswind then that is a problem but if you know the airport and are spot on with your positioning, radio call, speed and lookout then getting rid of a 360 degree descending turn in a potentially busy circuit must be more efficient and safer ?
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I suppose that the overhead join is a protocol, developed in the days of non radio aircraft, pre navaids, with the aim of joining in the most efficient manner.
As such is has beceome "best practice" (I do hate the term) and stuck around for a long time.
Personally, I've never much liked the overhead join, as overflying the signals square wasn't much of a need and with radio nav and GPS, airfield identification is not so challenging. So adding in a steep descent into an area of potentially higher traffic doesn't appeal to me, as we all kow that it is often harder to see other aircraft at a lower level due to ground clutter effect. And flying a low wing aeroplane type adds some blind spots too.
On the other hand, there have been few middairs in the circuit and the one I can think of involved a non standard circuit being flow by one aircraft (although the standard procedure was not an overhead join.)
So, being in mind TMM's experience, a question to ponder:
Is it time to develop some type of downwind join protocol, reducing confliction between departing and joining traffic?
As such is has beceome "best practice" (I do hate the term) and stuck around for a long time.
Personally, I've never much liked the overhead join, as overflying the signals square wasn't much of a need and with radio nav and GPS, airfield identification is not so challenging. So adding in a steep descent into an area of potentially higher traffic doesn't appeal to me, as we all kow that it is often harder to see other aircraft at a lower level due to ground clutter effect. And flying a low wing aeroplane type adds some blind spots too.
On the other hand, there have been few middairs in the circuit and the one I can think of involved a non standard circuit being flow by one aircraft (although the standard procedure was not an overhead join.)
So, being in mind TMM's experience, a question to ponder:
Is it time to develop some type of downwind join protocol, reducing confliction between departing and joining traffic?
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Unfazed: I think you missed the subtle nuance ... the OHJ leads to a crosswind leg overhead the upwind runway numbers.
The crosswind circuit leg is further upwind from that, well beyond the runway numbers, the 500 foot aal point at which a departing a/c would make a 90 degree climbing turn on to crosswind. Anyone joining direct on the circuit crosswind leg has potentially another a/c climbing up underneath, with a high/low wing conflict making matters worse.
Slip
The crosswind circuit leg is further upwind from that, well beyond the runway numbers, the 500 foot aal point at which a departing a/c would make a 90 degree climbing turn on to crosswind. Anyone joining direct on the circuit crosswind leg has potentially another a/c climbing up underneath, with a high/low wing conflict making matters worse.
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Sorry, did someone refer to 1000ft agl as "low level" back then? Is that from the same school of thought that says more than 20 degrees AoB in the circuit is dangerous, lest your aeroplane fall over? (Chuckles....)
Apologies for being somewhat off-topic.
Apologies for being somewhat off-topic.
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Sorry, did someone refer to 1000ft agl as "low level" back then? Is that from the same school of thought that says more than 20 degrees AoB in the circuit is dangerous, lest your aeroplane fall over? (Chuckles....)
Low enough to give you only a few seconds if something goes wrong. High enough to kill you if you fall from it I can't see much wrong with the American 45 join myself. You can still over fly the airfield at a safe height, descend well clear of the airfiled, then come inbound on a 45 degree join onto downwind. Works well, even in a busy traffic environment.