IMC Rating outside UK
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IMC Rating outside UK
As i can understand in Air Law book, that UK IMC Rating can be used outside UK if it approved from individual member states. Does it mean, that it possible to fly with IMC rating outside UK? What countries can accept that from your practice? Has somebody done it?
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Yes and no.
In theory any country can recognise any rating that they want to. So France could recognise your "UK only" IMC rating if they chose to do so.
In practise, as far as I understand it, no other country chooses to recognise the UK IMC rating.
I wish Ireland choose to recognise it. If we did, then my IAA licence would be traded in for a CAA one +IMC rating instantly.
That's probably exactly why they don't choose to recognise it.
dp
In theory any country can recognise any rating that they want to. So France could recognise your "UK only" IMC rating if they chose to do so.
In practise, as far as I understand it, no other country chooses to recognise the UK IMC rating.
I wish Ireland choose to recognise it. If we did, then my IAA licence would be traded in for a CAA one +IMC rating instantly.
That's probably exactly why they don't choose to recognise it.dp
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Since a fairly recent change in the ANO I don't think other countries have the option to recognise the IFR privileges of the IMC Rating.
The text now reads
Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes)
(1) Subject to paragraph (2) the rating shall within the United Kingdom—
(a) entitle the holder of a United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane without being subject to the restrictions contained respectively in paragraph (2)(c) or (f) of the privileges of the United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or (3)(g) or (i) of the privileges of the United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes); and
(b) entitle the holder of a JAR-FCL Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) The rating shall not entitle the holder of the licence to fly—
(a) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 3 km; or
(b) when the aeroplane is taking off or landing at any place if the flight visibility below cloud is less than 1,800 metres.
[my bold]
I gather the words in bold did not used to be there several years ago.
The other bit of the IMC Rating (the removal of the need to be in sight of the surface) comes from a different bit of the ANO:
(c) unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane—
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than 3 km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10 km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface;
and this is not limited to the UK. The CAA has confirmed this to me in writing. This section is what allows an IMCR holder to fly out of sight of the surface in for example France. People still love to debate this one, so I am getting out of here at this point
The text now reads
Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes)
(1) Subject to paragraph (2) the rating shall within the United Kingdom—
(a) entitle the holder of a United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane without being subject to the restrictions contained respectively in paragraph (2)(c) or (f) of the privileges of the United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or (3)(g) or (i) of the privileges of the United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes); and
(b) entitle the holder of a JAR-FCL Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) The rating shall not entitle the holder of the licence to fly—
(a) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 3 km; or
(b) when the aeroplane is taking off or landing at any place if the flight visibility below cloud is less than 1,800 metres.
[my bold]
I gather the words in bold did not used to be there several years ago.
The other bit of the IMC Rating (the removal of the need to be in sight of the surface) comes from a different bit of the ANO:
(c) unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane—
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than 3 km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10 km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface;
and this is not limited to the UK. The CAA has confirmed this to me in writing. This section is what allows an IMCR holder to fly out of sight of the surface in for example France. People still love to debate this one, so I am getting out of here at this point
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IO540,
Surely it is up to any country to recognise what they like? The paragraph you quote simple says that the UK can't oblige anyone else to recognise it.
If Brazil decided that you could fly IFR in their airspace, if you wrote your name back-words on the inside of a cornflakes box, then surely that is in their power. The UK can pass all the laws they like forbidding cornflake box licences, it wouldn't stop the Brazilian authorities.
Likewise, if Brazil they took a less controversial decision to recognise a UK IMC rating for IFR privileges in their airspace, they could do that too.
The tricky part would be that you couldn't use your CAA licence on a G reg aircraft abroad. However the Brazilian authorities could decide that they would validate your CAA licence for flight in their airspace.
In any case, I don't believe anyone else recognises the UK IMC rating.
dp
ps. I don't mean to pick on Brazil, it was just an hypothetical example!
Surely it is up to any country to recognise what they like? The paragraph you quote simple says that the UK can't oblige anyone else to recognise it.
If Brazil decided that you could fly IFR in their airspace, if you wrote your name back-words on the inside of a cornflakes box, then surely that is in their power. The UK can pass all the laws they like forbidding cornflake box licences, it wouldn't stop the Brazilian authorities.
Likewise, if Brazil they took a less controversial decision to recognise a UK IMC rating for IFR privileges in their airspace, they could do that too.
The tricky part would be that you couldn't use your CAA licence on a G reg aircraft abroad. However the Brazilian authorities could decide that they would validate your CAA licence for flight in their airspace.
In any case, I don't believe anyone else recognises the UK IMC rating.
dp
ps. I don't mean to pick on Brazil, it was just an hypothetical example!
The ANO is quite clear, it says it is only valid in the United Kingdom.
However, do they mean United Kingdom Airspace or is a UK registered aircraft actually a sovereign part of the United Kingdom? Wherever it might be.
However, do they mean United Kingdom Airspace or is a UK registered aircraft actually a sovereign part of the United Kingdom? Wherever it might be.
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dublinpilot
You may well be right - I don't know how international law works in this area.
In that case I wonder exactly why the CAA put those words in there.
I suspect the CAA limit applies to a CAA issues PPL, so Brazil would have to issue the pilot with a whole new PPL, in order to recognise his IMCR capability.
Fuji
Below FL195 France is mostly Class D, and their "airways" are little more than handy lines on their charts, are available for VFR flight, so if France chose to recognise say the IMCR the pilot could then fly IFR on those routes.
However, a lot of other bits of Europe are either Class C or Class A so would not be available for IMCR anyway.
The IMCR training would have to be expanded to include SIDs and STARs but any competent IMCR pilots can fly those anyway. To be honest there is nothing about "airways" flight which an IMCR pilot could not do
However, given the current attitude to watering down anything within JAA, the prospect of the IMCR being recognised elsewhere, or the prospect of an IR with a reasonable ground syllabus, is exactly zero. All you need is one German on a committee...
You may well be right - I don't know how international law works in this area.
In that case I wonder exactly why the CAA put those words in there.
I suspect the CAA limit applies to a CAA issues PPL, so Brazil would have to issue the pilot with a whole new PPL, in order to recognise his IMCR capability.
Fuji
Below FL195 France is mostly Class D, and their "airways" are little more than handy lines on their charts, are available for VFR flight, so if France chose to recognise say the IMCR the pilot could then fly IFR on those routes.
However, a lot of other bits of Europe are either Class C or Class A so would not be available for IMCR anyway.
The IMCR training would have to be expanded to include SIDs and STARs but any competent IMCR pilots can fly those anyway. To be honest there is nothing about "airways" flight which an IMCR pilot could not do
However, given the current attitude to watering down anything within JAA, the prospect of the IMCR being recognised elsewhere, or the prospect of an IR with a reasonable ground syllabus, is exactly zero. All you need is one German on a committee...
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Originally Posted by IO540
All you need is one German on a committee...
If you take the time to find out what the discussions at the various JAA meetings are like, you will find that the UK is one of the biggest proponents of adding requirements to what other countries do.
Just look at the restrictions on the average UK issued JAA licence compared to one issued elsewhere.
While Europe tries to obtain agreement on common airspace requirements, it is the UK that has problems with change. It is also the UK that sends people to all the meetings where change is agreed but then fails to let any of their users know about the proposed change until very late and so miss the implementation dates agreed!
Now that is something you can complain about!
Regards,
DFC
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I think the royal family has a lot less genetic diversity than just originating from one country
In general, and this isn't particularly aviation, the UK authorities are diligent in applying every EU directive that comes out, regardless of how much it screws UK industry or other "stakeholders" (what a nice expression that is).
Whereas other EU members, notably France, Italy, Spain, Greece, sign every treaty, collect any benefits under it, and ignore the bits they don't like.
The IMC Rating is an astonishing far-sighted benefit to UK pilots. There is probably not one person in today's CAA with the ba11s to propose something like that. Every pilot in Europe would give a lot for an IMCR equivalent but they can't have it.
It's a pity that HRH Charles wrecked that RAF plane up in Scotland. He could have been flying today and that would have done wonders for GA. Even funnier if it was some high performance N-reg !!!!
In general, and this isn't particularly aviation, the UK authorities are diligent in applying every EU directive that comes out, regardless of how much it screws UK industry or other "stakeholders" (what a nice expression that is).
Whereas other EU members, notably France, Italy, Spain, Greece, sign every treaty, collect any benefits under it, and ignore the bits they don't like.
The IMC Rating is an astonishing far-sighted benefit to UK pilots. There is probably not one person in today's CAA with the ba11s to propose something like that. Every pilot in Europe would give a lot for an IMCR equivalent but they can't have it.
It's a pity that HRH Charles wrecked that RAF plane up in Scotland. He could have been flying today and that would have done wonders for GA. Even funnier if it was some high performance N-reg !!!!
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Originally Posted by IO540
other EU members, notably France, Italy, Spain, Greece, sign every treaty, collect any benefits under it, and ignore the bits they don't like.
Can you give us a few example from those places please?
Regards,
DFC
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As an aside, we now have a Private Operations Instrument Rating in Australia on a national only basis. However, there's a bit more room to move here than the UK!
It's very firmly labelled in the licence as "Australia Only". Compared to the UK rating, it allows building blocks to build to an equivalent full rating.
G'day
It's very firmly labelled in the licence as "Australia Only". Compared to the UK rating, it allows building blocks to build to an equivalent full rating.
G'day
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Originally Posted by Feather #3
As an aside, we now have a Private Operations Instrument Rating in Australia on a national only basis. However, there's a bit more room to move here than the UK!
It's very firmly labelled in the licence as "Australia Only". Compared to the UK rating, it allows building blocks to build to an equivalent full rating.
G'day
It's very firmly labelled in the licence as "Australia Only". Compared to the UK rating, it allows building blocks to build to an equivalent full rating.
G'day
