Filing Flight Plan and Clearance
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Filing Flight Plan and Clearance
Geetting ready to take a flight over to mainland europe in a couple weeks, now I went and spent some time on the CFMU site and have a route picked out and I will file IFR (yes I have a full IR rating and I fly a single engine plane), I guess I will file with Heathrow again. But here is my main question, the airport I fly from has a tower but they will not issue an IFR clearance. and the airway entry is like 20NM from the airport, so I will get to it before I even get to altitude and way before that 10 minutes stated.
So with all my calling and looking and reading Ihave done, there is no provision in the UK for me to call ??? and get my clearance before leaving the ground in another words getting my clearance with a clearance void time? I will have to call London radio after takeoff and get the clearance somehow before reaching the intersection? tell me this isn't true. Thanks in advance
So with all my calling and looking and reading Ihave done, there is no provision in the UK for me to call ??? and get my clearance before leaving the ground in another words getting my clearance with a clearance void time? I will have to call London radio after takeoff and get the clearance somehow before reaching the intersection? tell me this isn't true. Thanks in advance
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Unfortunately it is true
There is no system like in the States to collect your clearance on the ground or by telephone with a clearance void time).
Depending where you are flying from, you may be able to get a LARS or other radar unit to negotiate the clearance with the airways control unit. They will typically give you a squawk and RIS/RAS while they coordinate with the airways guys. They will then hand you over to the appropriate frequency for the actual clearance.
If there is no local friendly unit then it is a call to London Information to activate your flight plan and do the coordination.
On the routes that I fly, there is a long distance I can run underneath the aiway and outside controlled airspace while the clearance is coordinated.
There is no system like in the States to collect your clearance on the ground or by telephone with a clearance void time).Depending where you are flying from, you may be able to get a LARS or other radar unit to negotiate the clearance with the airways control unit. They will typically give you a squawk and RIS/RAS while they coordinate with the airways guys. They will then hand you over to the appropriate frequency for the actual clearance.
If there is no local friendly unit then it is a call to London Information to activate your flight plan and do the coordination.
On the routes that I fly, there is a long distance I can run underneath the aiway and outside controlled airspace while the clearance is coordinated.
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Any towered (ATC) airfield should be able to make the phone call to London Control and get an IFR departure for you before you get airborne. They won't get you an IFR clearance as such but they will get you a squawk and a contact frequency, so when you get airborne and call up London Control with your tail number they will know all about you and give you vectors/levels etc right away.
Otherwise, as mm_flynn says, it's a case of calling up London Info and asking them to do it.
I have never heard of an officially authorised way for you to contact London Control directly before getting airborne.
Otherwise, as mm_flynn says, it's a case of calling up London Info and asking them to do it.
I have never heard of an officially authorised way for you to contact London Control directly before getting airborne.
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Originally Posted by Longbow55
But here is my main question, the airport I fly from has a tower but they will not issue an IFR clearance. and the airway entry is like 20NM from the airport, so I will get to it before I even get to altitude and way before that 10 minutes stated.
UK AIP, ENR 1.1.1, paragraph 4.1.4
Also - why are you filing with Heathrow? ATC / Ops at your airfield (if it's the one mentioned in your location) should be taking it and transmitting it for you?
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 23rd May 2006 at 09:07.
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Chilli Monstor,
I wish it was the one in my profile, I would actually getmy whole clearance through them, but unfortunatly it is not, and when asked at my airfield, I get we can file it for you, but can't give you a clearance. they just don't do that that there. I even asked all the club members and got the same answer. Guess I will stay below MOCA and get my clearance that way. Thanks again for all the help.
I should add this, I initailly start on an airway P155 if I remember right, but will only be on it, for about 5 or 10 minutes, then direct to CLN and then I stay onan airway to our destination. I will just call up London, and maybe ask our ATC again and see what happens
I wish it was the one in my profile, I would actually getmy whole clearance through them, but unfortunatly it is not, and when asked at my airfield, I get we can file it for you, but can't give you a clearance. they just don't do that that there. I even asked all the club members and got the same answer. Guess I will stay below MOCA and get my clearance that way. Thanks again for all the help.
I should add this, I initailly start on an airway P155 if I remember right, but will only be on it, for about 5 or 10 minutes, then direct to CLN and then I stay onan airway to our destination. I will just call up London, and maybe ask our ATC again and see what happens
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Longbow55, it might be worth pointing out to your oh-so-helpful tower that even if they can't get you the actual "join the airway" clearance they should be able to get you a squawk and a frequency to contact after take off. The nice thing about this, other than potentially avoiding having to join a queue to speak to London Information, is that you find out if your flight plan is "in the system" before you leave the ground, rather than at a thousand feet in IMC outside CAS, when you've probably got better things to think about.
In other words, as Chilli sort of says, there is a distinction to be made between the full airways joining clearance and an initial clearance of the type that Chilli points out.
In other words, as Chilli sort of says, there is a distinction to be made between the full airways joining clearance and an initial clearance of the type that Chilli points out.
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I will ask them again, and hopefully they can atleast do that. if anything I will go there when I get back into town and. now in the same breath they did say it was limited and no they couldn't do that, but if I can atleast ge my squawk, and freq, that would be great. I can file the night before from home.Guess it never hurts to ask more than once, heck our kids do.
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The other thing is that if you file a flight plan via www.homebriefing.com 
, it will go into the system within seconds and will be with London Control in less time than it takes to do a warm start on an IO540
It's only when people file flight plans by phone, or better still via some local terminal or fax facility, that they can be lost.
, it will go into the system within seconds and will be with London Control in less time than it takes to do a warm start on an IO540 It's only when people file flight plans by phone, or better still via some local terminal or fax facility, that they can be lost.
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DFC, No it is not. the min for the air way I am going to join isif I remember right is 9,000, and I jump off right at the 10,000 point. the class A doesn't start till futher up. if the clearance goes like it did last time when I did my cross country time, I will be at my turn point before they give me the clearance.
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Originally Posted by IO540
The other thing is that if you file a flight plan via www.homebriefing.com , it will go into the system within seconds and will be with London Control in less time than it takes to do a warm start on an IO540
It's only when people file flight plans by phone, or better still via some local terminal or fax facility, that they can be lost.
, it will go into the system within seconds and will be with London Control in less time than it takes to do a warm start on an IO540 It's only when people file flight plans by phone, or better still via some local terminal or fax facility, that they can be lost.
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Yes, Homebriefing is an excellent service. One of the well kept secrets in this business.
A little less suitable for flight plans for UK-style IFR (OCAS) because they stuff all IFR flight plans into CFMU and low-level routes in the UK around Class G etc usually violate airway MEAs etc etc so UK ATC nods and winks and addresses them manually as if they were VFR.
But then few people file flight plans for that sort of flying anyway (no legal need to).
When you say MOCA I think you mean airway MEA This is normal - you have to remain OCAS after departure, until London Control take you over. MOCA is obstacle clearance; an FAA-only term!
A little less suitable for flight plans for UK-style IFR (OCAS) because they stuff all IFR flight plans into CFMU and low-level routes in the UK around Class G etc usually violate airway MEAs etc etc so UK ATC nods and winks and addresses them manually as if they were VFR.
But then few people file flight plans for that sort of flying anyway (no legal need to).
When you say MOCA I think you mean airway MEA
This is normal - you have to remain OCAS after departure, until London Control take you over. MOCA is obstacle clearance; an FAA-only term!
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Originally Posted by IO540
Yes, Homebriefing is an excellent service. One of the well kept secrets in this business.
A little less suitable for flight plans for UK-style IFR (OCAS) because they stuff all IFR flight plans into CFMU and low-level routes in the UK around Class G etc usually violate airway MEAs etc etc so UK ATC nods and winks and addresses them manually as if they were VFR.
But then few people file flight plans for that sort of flying anyway (no legal need to).
When you say MOCA I think you mean airway MEA This is normal - you have to remain OCAS after departure, until London Control take you over. MOCA is obstacle clearance; an FAA-only term!
A little less suitable for flight plans for UK-style IFR (OCAS) because they stuff all IFR flight plans into CFMU and low-level routes in the UK around Class G etc usually violate airway MEAs etc etc so UK ATC nods and winks and addresses them manually as if they were VFR.
But then few people file flight plans for that sort of flying anyway (no legal need to).
When you say MOCA I think you mean airway MEA
This is normal - you have to remain OCAS after departure, until London Control take you over. MOCA is obstacle clearance; an FAA-only term!
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Longbow55
I sent you a PM.
There are various tips on how to get into the airways system unambiguously.
One is to file an ICAO flight plan (you have to anyway, for Class A) with a realistic level, e.g. something like FL100-150 on it. If you put 2400ft on it, UK ATC will probably think "this is an IMC Rated pilot trying to be ultra diligent" and they will just address it as per VFR.
Another is to TELL the tower to phone up London Control and get an airways clearance for you.
But it does sometimes happen that ATC keeps you down low for a long distance. I don't have experience of this personally since I have not flown airways on what I regard as trivial flights within the UK which can be conducted on the usual informal VFR-come-IFR basis. But I know of very high hour IFR pilots who find this, and what they tend to do is they fly the "informal IFR" within the UK and change over to airways once leaving the UK.
The whole point of an IR is for IFR into Europe, anyway (in the piston aircraft context).
It isn't ATC's job to question pilot privileges, so the N number will mean nothing to them. A lot of pilots fly N-reg on the IMC Rating - do you think every one of the 50 or so Cirrus owners in the UK has a full IR?
I sent you a PM.
There are various tips on how to get into the airways system unambiguously.
One is to file an ICAO flight plan (you have to anyway, for Class A) with a realistic level, e.g. something like FL100-150 on it. If you put 2400ft on it, UK ATC will probably think "this is an IMC Rated pilot trying to be ultra diligent" and they will just address it as per VFR.
Another is to TELL the tower to phone up London Control and get an airways clearance for you.
But it does sometimes happen that ATC keeps you down low for a long distance. I don't have experience of this personally since I have not flown airways on what I regard as trivial flights within the UK which can be conducted on the usual informal VFR-come-IFR basis. But I know of very high hour IFR pilots who find this, and what they tend to do is they fly the "informal IFR" within the UK and change over to airways once leaving the UK.
The whole point of an IR is for IFR into Europe, anyway (in the piston aircraft context).
It isn't ATC's job to question pilot privileges, so the N number will mean nothing to them. A lot of pilots fly N-reg on the IMC Rating - do you think every one of the 50 or so Cirrus owners in the UK has a full IR?
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That is exactly what London did to me a couple weeks ago, and when I told them I was an Appropiatley rated pilot, the radio went very silent, and then a reply to the extent of OH we made a mistake. I am still upset over that. I file what the MEA is on the chart or higher and in this case I am either at MEA or 2,000 above it.
I do understand what you are saying, and maybe the UK system is simpler? and maybe it isn't. but when I file a plan at 070 in my mind I am clearly indicating that I am not just an IMC rated pilot, especially with the airspace around he London area. Yes I understand the no single engine over the city of London. but to plain disregard a filed and approved flightplan is just wrong, and makes a person wonder. Oh, and I get questioned on one flight From London again, "Are you sure you want to fly this plan and that altitude" a direct quote, and had to look at the passanger I disbelief, and answered yes I do.. I think you know were Iam coming from when I ask what I do. I wil read your PM in aminute.
I do understand what you are saying, and maybe the UK system is simpler? and maybe it isn't. but when I file a plan at 070 in my mind I am clearly indicating that I am not just an IMC rated pilot, especially with the airspace around he London area. Yes I understand the no single engine over the city of London. but to plain disregard a filed and approved flightplan is just wrong, and makes a person wonder. Oh, and I get questioned on one flight From London again, "Are you sure you want to fly this plan and that altitude" a direct quote, and had to look at the passanger I disbelief, and answered yes I do.. I think you know were Iam coming from when I ask what I do. I wil read your PM in aminute.
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Justt made a very expensive phone call to my ATC unit, and talked to them somemore, and I actually talked to the tower supervisior, and was told no problem getting my clearances, wich is awesome. I will file with either the compny IO540 mentioned or just fax it in, and I am set.
I would like to thank everyone for the help, and IO540 the PM link, is great, I read that a couple weeks ago and we are current for BRNAV.
I would like to thank everyone for the help, and IO540 the PM link, is great, I read that a couple weeks ago and we are current for BRNAV.
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I don't understand this.
London Control will not even provide a service to anybody except on an IFR (airways) flight plan. For this an IR is required, so it's not their business to doubt pilot privileges.
I can only suggest the possibility, and please don't take this the wrong way, that the pilot did not sound very confident. In this type of flying, the workload isn't usually high but they expect you to be on the ball like an airline pilot who does that leg a few times a day and knows all the airway intersection names as well as your PPL instructor knows all the sheep within a few miles of his airfield. If your radio work is less than confident and decisive, ATC will get rattled because they are trying to separate you from commercial traffic. They don't have the patience of a monk of London Info, or Farnborough Radar, for example.
Same reason that a lot of people get refused VFR transits of Luton, Gatwick, etc, etc.
London Control will not even provide a service to anybody except on an IFR (airways) flight plan. For this an IR is required, so it's not their business to doubt pilot privileges.
I can only suggest the possibility, and please don't take this the wrong way, that the pilot did not sound very confident. In this type of flying, the workload isn't usually high but they expect you to be on the ball like an airline pilot who does that leg a few times a day and knows all the airway intersection names as well as your PPL instructor knows all the sheep within a few miles of his airfield. If your radio work is less than confident and decisive, ATC will get rattled because they are trying to separate you from commercial traffic. They don't have the patience of a monk of London Info, or Farnborough Radar, for example.
Same reason that a lot of people get refused VFR transits of Luton, Gatwick, etc, etc.
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Not taken the wrong way at all with me. I still don't understand why they did itin the first place. but it was done and in the past. if this next one goes any other than smooth I will complain to someone in authority, whoever that would be, but I don't see any problems with this.
