Lessons at EGNT / NCL
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Newcastle
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Yeah DTV was where I was looking for originally, as I wasn't too sure what the score was with the school at NCL. Yeah £18 to land is a lot, but I'm not too sure if the landing fees are included in the advertised hourly rates with the two clubs in DTV, whereas on NCL'sclub site, it clearly states landing fees are extra. I'm hoping to fly one or two hours a month, so I'm going to have to have a serious think and draw up some sort of cost-benefit analysis.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Originally Posted by geordiejet
Hey,
I'm seriously considering joining the club at NCL, and I notice they have a Bulldog for hire, at just £5 more than a C150. As I much prefer low wings, and money is very tight, I think the Bulldog may be just the ticket.
Anyone flown this? As there is only one example with the club, is availability an issue? I've only flown a C150/152 and Seminoles so would need difference training, and would have to get used to using a stick!
Cheers :-)
I'm seriously considering joining the club at NCL, and I notice they have a Bulldog for hire, at just £5 more than a C150. As I much prefer low wings, and money is very tight, I think the Bulldog may be just the ticket.
Anyone flown this? As there is only one example with the club, is availability an issue? I've only flown a C150/152 and Seminoles so would need difference training, and would have to get used to using a stick!
Cheers :-)
As for flying it, well it's a great little aeroplane. In my opinion, far easier to fly than a C150 or PA28 for the following reasons;
1. Somebody actually designed it, rather than throwing an assortment of bits together which by some happy coincidence resembled an aeroplane. Everything is where it should be in the cockpit.
2. It is very responsive. 'Point and go' handling, as opposed to the 'wallows like a pig' handling you may be used to.
3. Great visibility.
4. Spacious (in relative terms).
5. Aerobatic, which in a 'Dog is a hoot!
I loved my training in the 'Dog, and when I first set foot in one of the spamcan alternatives I was enormously disappointed. It was my first aircraft and it is a doddle to fly. You will have no problem adapting whatsoever, except for the fact that you will forever more hate the alternative.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Bulldog :- The club has access to it, and it is now on it's annual at EGNC I am led to believe. And as MC states very much "point and squirt flying,good fun and you will need to do the conversion training. Can anybody confirm how long a type rating lasts. ie: complex vp retractable u/c. As far as I am aware the EGNV one is now at Fishburn
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Gon Tek
I stand to be corrected (OK, no I don't because I'm sitting down), but there is no 'type rating' for wobbly props or windy up and down gear. A SEP/MEP rating covers all variations on a theme, although in practice you will find most clubs/groups will want to see evidence of previous experience on a particular variant or insist you undergo familiarisation training. There is no additional endorsement to the rating in your licence to specify additions to the SEP/MEP rating, which I am sure you already know, is valid for 2 years.
I stand to be corrected (OK, no I don't because I'm sitting down), but there is no 'type rating' for wobbly props or windy up and down gear. A SEP/MEP rating covers all variations on a theme, although in practice you will find most clubs/groups will want to see evidence of previous experience on a particular variant or insist you undergo familiarisation training. There is no additional endorsement to the rating in your licence to specify additions to the SEP/MEP rating, which I am sure you already know, is valid for 2 years.
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Felix Saddler - yep there's a few of us on here. I'm revising for the skills test at the moment (with too many theory exams to do!).
I've not commented so far, but all I can say is Northumbria Flight Training has great FIs, grat atmosphere, and I've met some great people there too.
Price wise I cannot comment, living 30 miles North, I didn't have the choice of Teesside. And, being so young, the original poster probably doesn't either, considering it's 2 years before he can drive...
Go to Newcastle and have a trial flight, that's the best thing to do if you ask me.
I've not commented so far, but all I can say is Northumbria Flight Training has great FIs, grat atmosphere, and I've met some great people there too.
Price wise I cannot comment, living 30 miles North, I didn't have the choice of Teesside. And, being so young, the original poster probably doesn't either, considering it's 2 years before he can drive...
Go to Newcastle and have a trial flight, that's the best thing to do if you ask me.
Join Date: May 2006
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The School's View
Hello Everyone,
This thread has brought up some issues that are important.
Costs
I have tried to make the prices quite explicit on the website. I have included under the 'learn to fly' section every cost that I can think of including CAA fees. Items like High-vis jackets, headsets and airside passes are either not necessary or are available on free loan. 1 to 1 tuition is available at £16ph (standard rate) and the Old Aero Club Style evening classes continue. Let it be noted however that tuition is free if it is part of the flying. i.e. your brief on engine failures is free if you are going to fly afterwards. We tried to keep the prices the same as the Aero Club which was not registered for VAT but of course we are (£20 VAT difference + £1.30 fuel per litre), so I hope everyone understands that this is passion for aviation not profits.
Aircraft
The Bulldog is available to use after diffences checks and is a beautiful aircraft to fly - real flying. Booking is made online. The school is a member of the bulldog group and therefore you members have access to it through the school. The has come about because of the bankrupcy of Ashton Aviation. The aircraft were in a less than pleasant state when the school bought the aircraft and set up in 2005. (The Cessna is also part owned and has had less investment because of this.) Since then the aircraft have been refurbished - see the gallery for some pics, GPSs, rear intercomms etc have been added. Many of the aircraft have had new aplostery added also. We are hoping to get G-KART back online in the Summer - completely overhauled with new engine, NEW WINGS, new panel, new seats, GPS etc.
Traffic
I would be lying if I said Newcastle is not 'busy' at times. The truth is that orbiting does happen, but you just need to time it wright. You can get more than 5 t+g's in one hour just not at the busy times, during which 2-3 touch and go's is more common due to holds.
The situation with Carlisle is as follows: Unlimited circuits for £15, if a full stop landing is made that's £15. Its roughly 40 minutes to Carlisle if you choose to go. You can go with a fellow student and share the costs if you want. Land away experience is important but don't assume that you must go to Carlisle to complete your circuits - 3 hours of the syllabus.
Times are from chocks away to shut down so do indeed include any run-holds. Because of the traffic problems there are currently peak landing fees between 10-11am (£36) which can be flown over and land at 11.05am. However next month (June) sees the introduction of peak landing fees between 3-5pm. The school has allocated flying slots to avoid these times leaving 30 minutes of inactivity from 3-3.30pm.
Instructors
See the website for names. Andy and John are our full time intructors, with the rest part time. I won't comment on them as I believe that's unprofessional. What I will say is that Newcastle Aero Club was the oldest club in the UK, and I believe that experience and club atmosphere has continued with the school. Andy has an CPL/IR FI >1000hrs, John (CFI, FE) 72 years, too many hours to count.
Fuel
There are sometimes issues with fuel availability, but these are rare, a backup supply is available and the problems are being resolved.
This thread has brought up some issues that are important.
Costs
I have tried to make the prices quite explicit on the website. I have included under the 'learn to fly' section every cost that I can think of including CAA fees. Items like High-vis jackets, headsets and airside passes are either not necessary or are available on free loan. 1 to 1 tuition is available at £16ph (standard rate) and the Old Aero Club Style evening classes continue. Let it be noted however that tuition is free if it is part of the flying. i.e. your brief on engine failures is free if you are going to fly afterwards. We tried to keep the prices the same as the Aero Club which was not registered for VAT but of course we are (£20 VAT difference + £1.30 fuel per litre), so I hope everyone understands that this is passion for aviation not profits.
Aircraft
The Bulldog is available to use after diffences checks and is a beautiful aircraft to fly - real flying. Booking is made online. The school is a member of the bulldog group and therefore you members have access to it through the school. The has come about because of the bankrupcy of Ashton Aviation. The aircraft were in a less than pleasant state when the school bought the aircraft and set up in 2005. (The Cessna is also part owned and has had less investment because of this.) Since then the aircraft have been refurbished - see the gallery for some pics, GPSs, rear intercomms etc have been added. Many of the aircraft have had new aplostery added also. We are hoping to get G-KART back online in the Summer - completely overhauled with new engine, NEW WINGS, new panel, new seats, GPS etc.
Traffic
I would be lying if I said Newcastle is not 'busy' at times. The truth is that orbiting does happen, but you just need to time it wright. You can get more than 5 t+g's in one hour just not at the busy times, during which 2-3 touch and go's is more common due to holds.
The situation with Carlisle is as follows: Unlimited circuits for £15, if a full stop landing is made that's £15. Its roughly 40 minutes to Carlisle if you choose to go. You can go with a fellow student and share the costs if you want. Land away experience is important but don't assume that you must go to Carlisle to complete your circuits - 3 hours of the syllabus.
Times are from chocks away to shut down so do indeed include any run-holds. Because of the traffic problems there are currently peak landing fees between 10-11am (£36) which can be flown over and land at 11.05am. However next month (June) sees the introduction of peak landing fees between 3-5pm. The school has allocated flying slots to avoid these times leaving 30 minutes of inactivity from 3-3.30pm.
Instructors
See the website for names. Andy and John are our full time intructors, with the rest part time. I won't comment on them as I believe that's unprofessional. What I will say is that Newcastle Aero Club was the oldest club in the UK, and I believe that experience and club atmosphere has continued with the school. Andy has an CPL/IR FI >1000hrs, John (CFI, FE) 72 years, too many hours to count.
Fuel
There are sometimes issues with fuel availability, but these are rare, a backup supply is available and the problems are being resolved.
Join Date: May 2006
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Originally Posted by VT10
Go to Durham Tees Valley or Carlisle.
I wouldn't touch Newcastle with a barge-pole. Neil Clark's a smashing fella and I've no axe to grind with the Aero Club (other than it being Darras Hall Social Club - they like to talk and wear the NAC jumpers but very few know what the inside of an aircraft looks like), but my advice is study the costs VERY carefully.
Newcastle is anti-GA and the airport management are desperate to get rid of it, hence the costs (landing fees etc) are exhorbitant.
The hourly rate may look attractive, but enquire about additional costs.
ATC will keep you sat at the holding point for hours while you sit there with the engine running, paying for it and learning nothing. (Not ATC's fault I think they're under orders to make believe its a busy airport)
Even the fuel costs are shocking.
Save your money & look elsewhere...
I wouldn't touch Newcastle with a barge-pole. Neil Clark's a smashing fella and I've no axe to grind with the Aero Club (other than it being Darras Hall Social Club - they like to talk and wear the NAC jumpers but very few know what the inside of an aircraft looks like), but my advice is study the costs VERY carefully.
Newcastle is anti-GA and the airport management are desperate to get rid of it, hence the costs (landing fees etc) are exhorbitant.
The hourly rate may look attractive, but enquire about additional costs.
ATC will keep you sat at the holding point for hours while you sit there with the engine running, paying for it and learning nothing. (Not ATC's fault I think they're under orders to make believe its a busy airport)
Even the fuel costs are shocking.
Save your money & look elsewhere...
The school is nolonger a social club and nolonger requires black ties to be worn. However with 300 members the school is far from being driven out but is thriving (albeit limited by the airport). If you've had a bad experience nobody can learn if you don't critise - get in touch if you want to have a chat.
Thanks
Bobby
Join Date: Dec 2004
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No need to stand to be corrected Maude Charlie (unless correction is your thing Sir !) I read or misread as may be the case that differences training lasted a certain length of time if not used, ie no sectors flown in that type of aircraft and it makes sense that any club would make sure you are competent to fly the aircraft.
Bobby has hit the nail on the head if you want to know ask !
And if you want to learn to fly EGNT is not the worst place on earth but I agree it is not the cheapest but anything enjoyable never is.
It is a buisness and not a charity after all.
Gontek....
Bobby has hit the nail on the head if you want to know ask !
And if you want to learn to fly EGNT is not the worst place on earth but I agree it is not the cheapest but anything enjoyable never is.
It is a buisness and not a charity after all.
Gontek....
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I currently fly from Newcastle as a student PPL. The options I had on deciding where to go were whether I fancied an hour plus drive to DTV (and possibly have a cancelled lesson) or a 15 min drive to Newcastle. Also, remember the exams and ground school. If you need help (and I did) the FI's there are only too willing to sit on a one to one and go through the more difficult parts. In fact Neil has recently spent quite a lot on an overhead presentation kit showing the 7 exams in English!! I did my Navigation there and it helped a great deal.
Its worth mentioning the quality of the FI's too. There are younger and older FI's there and I've been luck enough to fly with most of them. Hand on heart, they're all excellent. You'd possibly find one (or two) suited to your personality and style more than the rest and if thats the case, great, but they are all enthusiastic and good teachers.
Then there is the social side of things. Neil is putting on a coach to go to the Farnborough Air Show, there and back in a day. Its booking up already. There are usually members of the Club sitting around in the bay window area of the club chatting about all things (including flying). Loads of experience there to be gained by simply sitting with them all.
Go and have a look, chat to Neil, Lynda and the Instructors, look at the training room and facilities, sit in an aircraft, chat to the students there and decide for yourself.
Its worth mentioning the quality of the FI's too. There are younger and older FI's there and I've been luck enough to fly with most of them. Hand on heart, they're all excellent. You'd possibly find one (or two) suited to your personality and style more than the rest and if thats the case, great, but they are all enthusiastic and good teachers.
Then there is the social side of things. Neil is putting on a coach to go to the Farnborough Air Show, there and back in a day. Its booking up already. There are usually members of the Club sitting around in the bay window area of the club chatting about all things (including flying). Loads of experience there to be gained by simply sitting with them all.
Go and have a look, chat to Neil, Lynda and the Instructors, look at the training room and facilities, sit in an aircraft, chat to the students there and decide for yourself.
Bobby,
I think that if you read my original post carefully, I did point out that I've no axe to grind with the Aero Club / Flying School.
I would class Neil Clark as a friend and I personally think he's done a remarkable job against the odds since he took over flying school operations.
As a place to learn to fly, Newcastle sucks.
Nothing to do with the flying school, just the rules, regulations and above all the restrictions imposed on the place by the Airport Authorities.
Having to fly to EGNC to do circuits and then pay extra, fuel at £1.30 a litre, restrictions and 'slots' for take-off & landing.....what's that all about?
Its bad enough getting decent weather at times without then having to try to balance that up with a slot, be it peak or off peak, and the associated costs.
I like to fly my aircraft when I want to, not when some bloody authority dictates.
Its not like its too busy for light aircraft movements; the Airport just doesn't want GA.
Where have all the private aircraft gone and why?
What happened to the Open days, or was that the victim of the airport authorities too?
If the Flying school is going well, great.
Personally, with the costs & restrictions currently imposed on GA operations by the Airport Authority, Newcastle is the last place I'd recommend to learn to fly to a young lad with a limited budget.
That is no reflection on the school, the owners or the people employed there.
VT10
(Ex EGNU & EGNT, but still roaming the North-east sky, when I want, at any time, without restriction, able to to circuits when I please, using Avgas purchased at a fraction of the Newcastle price, no hi-viz jacket or expensive pass, need I go on.......?)
I think that if you read my original post carefully, I did point out that I've no axe to grind with the Aero Club / Flying School.
I would class Neil Clark as a friend and I personally think he's done a remarkable job against the odds since he took over flying school operations.
As a place to learn to fly, Newcastle sucks.
Nothing to do with the flying school, just the rules, regulations and above all the restrictions imposed on the place by the Airport Authorities.
Having to fly to EGNC to do circuits and then pay extra, fuel at £1.30 a litre, restrictions and 'slots' for take-off & landing.....what's that all about?
Its bad enough getting decent weather at times without then having to try to balance that up with a slot, be it peak or off peak, and the associated costs.
I like to fly my aircraft when I want to, not when some bloody authority dictates.
Its not like its too busy for light aircraft movements; the Airport just doesn't want GA.
Where have all the private aircraft gone and why?
What happened to the Open days, or was that the victim of the airport authorities too?
If the Flying school is going well, great.
Personally, with the costs & restrictions currently imposed on GA operations by the Airport Authority, Newcastle is the last place I'd recommend to learn to fly to a young lad with a limited budget.
That is no reflection on the school, the owners or the people employed there.
VT10
(Ex EGNU & EGNT, but still roaming the North-east sky, when I want, at any time, without restriction, able to to circuits when I please, using Avgas purchased at a fraction of the Newcastle price, no hi-viz jacket or expensive pass, need I go on.......?)
Join Date: May 2006
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Hi everyone,
The truth is only a fraction of people go to Carlisle to do their circuits. So I think this is less of an issue than people think.
The issue about landing/takeoff slots was made worse by myself being unclear. Their are no official slots imposed on the school by the airport. The school operates a diary system for aircraft booking. Each diary slot is 1h30 long - during which you have use of the aircraft. These slots have been arranged to fit around the peak landing fees so nobody need never pay the peak fee. These slots are not 100% fixed either. You can take a double slot or take an abnormal time or an whole week (touring) if you please. The slots start at 9.30am and go to 20.00pm with training slots being available either side if you arrange them with your instructor. I don't know what the system is a DTV but it would be mayhem without this booking system.
The only reason that an aircraft might be left waiting at the hold is that the flying school is at the wrong end of the runway and backtracking is required. ATC is under orders that GA cannot cross the runway and use taxiway Delta, in case they get lost! Instructors know the problem and are quite quick at the backtrack and takeoff, such that ATC can normally allow an aircraft straight onto the runway. It is PPL holders that fly every 28 days that take longer and thus ATC wait for a larger gap.
The cost of fuel is being worked on with the intention of reducing the cost in the future. I can say no more than this, as this is a sensitive issue.
DTV operates mainly C152s which are not the same as Warriors. The warriors are larger and more powerful aircraft. They are more stable and quicker machines and such can fly in worse weather - a must for this country. For example the climb rate in a C152 is roughly 700-800 fpm at absolute most. The warriors get more than 1000fpm, even in summer. Cleveland's special price is based on payment of half the costs upfront, so you need to know that you like the place and are going to pass in 45 hours or that will not be the real total. Prices at both our school and Cleveland are going to change because of the fuel, so please don't think it's a Newcastle issue.
Private aircraft have disappeared because of parking and hangarage fees which have not influenced prices at the school. They have gone to smaller airfields such as Fishburn. The Open Days have fallen victim to the airport. But this has been added to by the demise of the aero club. The flying school is now only just on its feet and starting to redo things that the aero club was accustomed to do. Thus, it would not surprise me if we had some sort of open day this year or maybe next year, now that the school is capable of handling the event. As 'happyeater' said there is always somebody sat in the school to talk to and the coach to Farnborough is 32.50 pounds per seat return based on 30 people in a 49 seat coach. The cost will be less with more people - everyone welcome.
Comparison
Bobby
The truth is only a fraction of people go to Carlisle to do their circuits. So I think this is less of an issue than people think.
The issue about landing/takeoff slots was made worse by myself being unclear. Their are no official slots imposed on the school by the airport. The school operates a diary system for aircraft booking. Each diary slot is 1h30 long - during which you have use of the aircraft. These slots have been arranged to fit around the peak landing fees so nobody need never pay the peak fee. These slots are not 100% fixed either. You can take a double slot or take an abnormal time or an whole week (touring) if you please. The slots start at 9.30am and go to 20.00pm with training slots being available either side if you arrange them with your instructor. I don't know what the system is a DTV but it would be mayhem without this booking system.
The only reason that an aircraft might be left waiting at the hold is that the flying school is at the wrong end of the runway and backtracking is required. ATC is under orders that GA cannot cross the runway and use taxiway Delta, in case they get lost! Instructors know the problem and are quite quick at the backtrack and takeoff, such that ATC can normally allow an aircraft straight onto the runway. It is PPL holders that fly every 28 days that take longer and thus ATC wait for a larger gap.
The cost of fuel is being worked on with the intention of reducing the cost in the future. I can say no more than this, as this is a sensitive issue.
DTV operates mainly C152s which are not the same as Warriors. The warriors are larger and more powerful aircraft. They are more stable and quicker machines and such can fly in worse weather - a must for this country. For example the climb rate in a C152 is roughly 700-800 fpm at absolute most. The warriors get more than 1000fpm, even in summer. Cleveland's special price is based on payment of half the costs upfront, so you need to know that you like the place and are going to pass in 45 hours or that will not be the real total. Prices at both our school and Cleveland are going to change because of the fuel, so please don't think it's a Newcastle issue.
Private aircraft have disappeared because of parking and hangarage fees which have not influenced prices at the school. They have gone to smaller airfields such as Fishburn. The Open Days have fallen victim to the airport. But this has been added to by the demise of the aero club. The flying school is now only just on its feet and starting to redo things that the aero club was accustomed to do. Thus, it would not surprise me if we had some sort of open day this year or maybe next year, now that the school is capable of handling the event. As 'happyeater' said there is always somebody sat in the school to talk to and the coach to Farnborough is 32.50 pounds per seat return based on 30 people in a 49 seat coach. The cost will be less with more people - everyone welcome.
Comparison
- Newcastle - 15 minutes drive or metro, DTV - 1 hour drive (legal speeds)
- Consider if your parent(s) will wait around for effectively half a day if you go to DTV. 2 hours travel, upto 2 hours there = 4 hours.
- C152 vs. Warrior (or C150, if you prefer)
- Pay as you fly prices are 4 pounds different between EGNT and EGNV (C152 vs. C150). Over 45 hours that's near the price difference for the medical and other costs. Soon to close when fuel issues are sorted.
- DTV can take you to CPL/IR. EGNT offers PPL, IMC, FI, Aerobatics. No word on CPL. Both operations have commerical experience (AOC). EGNV offers more - true.
- Availability of aircraft - check
- etc
Bobby
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Just to add to what I have said, I am starting a survey to measure the time spent at the hold (actually holding not performing the run-up) so we can have facts to throw around.
Bobby
Bobby