HASELL
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HASELL
I'm slightly confused and intrigued to know if there are different views on when HASELL should be used.
This is my understanding.
HASELL is for safety during aerobatic operations
Steep turns,Hasell not needed just a good look out left and right before the manouvre.
Stalls,Hasell required.
But if doing a series of say clean and flapped stalls,do you re do Hasell before each stall ?
Or do you look 90 deg left and right before each one?
Or do you do a Hasell every 5 mins or so during the manouvres?
Lister
This is my understanding.
HASELL is for safety during aerobatic operations
Steep turns,Hasell not needed just a good look out left and right before the manouvre.
Stalls,Hasell required.
But if doing a series of say clean and flapped stalls,do you re do Hasell before each stall ?
Or do you look 90 deg left and right before each one?
Or do you do a Hasell every 5 mins or so during the manouvres?
Lister
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I'm a little rusty on this, but if I remember correctly, you do need to do a HASELL before steep turns, as your pulling g and it could be confirmed an aerobatic manouevre.
After each stall I was taught to do a "HELL" check, omitting A & S as you'd already done these. I got told I'd fail my skill test if I didn't do it this way. I passed, so I guess it's correct?
DW
After each stall I was taught to do a "HELL" check, omitting A & S as you'd already done these. I got told I'd fail my skill test if I didn't do it this way. I passed, so I guess it's correct?
DW
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Well,my CFI of many years experience including a great number of aerobatic displays told me today I don't need Hasell for steep turns!
You can see why I am confused.
Lister
You can see why I am confused.
Lister
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HASELL before you start steep turns or stalls - anything that requires height. If you are doing a series of manoeuvres, just HELL after the first one. For the Lookout, I tend to do a 360 and go straight into the first manoevre, then either do an immediate follow on manoevre, eg steep turn to the left followed by one to the right, or do a 180 before changing the exercise I am doing. That's what I've been taught anyway, but I'm sure every instructor has their own variation.
Good luck next week Lister
Lysander
Good luck next week Lister
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LN your CFI is correct in that technically you do not need to do a HASELL check before advanced (steep) turns exercise, however it is probably good practice to do them anyway, you cannot be critised for doing them as part of your airmanship.
If you think about it you actually do most of them anyway before the steep turns exercise. You make sure you have sufficient height, you make sure the flaps are up, that everyone has thier seat belts on tight and of course you would check your T & P's before the excercise anyway and Location and Lookout you would do anyway so although most people don't physically call out the HASELL checks before steep turns they do in fact do most of it anyway.
I personally would do it even in the test as the examiner is not going to fail you for good airmanship, they will fails you for poor or no airmanship.
If you think about it you actually do most of them anyway before the steep turns exercise. You make sure you have sufficient height, you make sure the flaps are up, that everyone has thier seat belts on tight and of course you would check your T & P's before the excercise anyway and Location and Lookout you would do anyway so although most people don't physically call out the HASELL checks before steep turns they do in fact do most of it anyway.
I personally would do it even in the test as the examiner is not going to fail you for good airmanship, they will fails you for poor or no airmanship.
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A steep turn is just that - a slightly sportier turn than you'd normally make. As such, other than a pre-turn lookout, I see no reason to do a set of HASELLs. I can see how it could be argued that a max rate turn could need a set of HASELLs, but I really don't think that the very small risk that the aircraft could be sufficiently mishandled as to depart makes them worthwhile. In addition, many of the particular items covered would be somewhat pointless - for example, I'd be more than happy to turn steeply at relatively low altitude.
However, a stall/spin package or aeros involves a deliberate period of either uncontrolled flight, or at the very least limited manoevrebility, risk of overstress or undesirable handling characteristics if any services are selected, and significant potential danger if there are any loose articles in the cockpit or the crew are not properly strapped in, so therefore definately requires a HASELL check.
However, a stall/spin package or aeros involves a deliberate period of either uncontrolled flight, or at the very least limited manoevrebility, risk of overstress or undesirable handling characteristics if any services are selected, and significant potential danger if there are any loose articles in the cockpit or the crew are not properly strapped in, so therefore definately requires a HASELL check.
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"LN your CFI is correct in that technically"
Without wishing to be pedantic - why is he tecnically correct. I am not aware where its says you should or should not do a HASELL or anything else for that matter before doing certain manoeuvers.
Good practice is another matter.
I can think of more reasons for doing a HASELL before doing tight turns than before doing an aileron roll!
Without wishing to be pedantic - why is he tecnically correct. I am not aware where its says you should or should not do a HASELL or anything else for that matter before doing certain manoeuvers.
Good practice is another matter.
I can think of more reasons for doing a HASELL before doing tight turns than before doing an aileron roll!
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The whole point of ex.15 (advanced turns) is to teach you how to avoid another a/c. It is not just a skills building excercise.
Emergency turns (Max rate.) would not be preceded by a HASELL check in real life, so why do them when practising? Do you do a HASELL check before you commence every turn?
HASELL checks are done pre-stalling, but in-between stalls, do a HELL check.
I don't do HASELL before steep turns, rather I tell the student that they need to turn immediately and hopefully they'll be able to do it without losing control of the a/c.
Emergency turns (Max rate.) would not be preceded by a HASELL check in real life, so why do them when practising? Do you do a HASELL check before you commence every turn?
HASELL checks are done pre-stalling, but in-between stalls, do a HELL check.
I don't do HASELL before steep turns, rather I tell the student that they need to turn immediately and hopefully they'll be able to do it without losing control of the a/c.
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Fuji,
Suspect slow refers to an emergency break, rather than an academic steep turn, where the instructor will clear the airspace (mainly to the right, assuming the stude is sufficiently competent) BEFORE calling a simulated emergency avoidance manoevre. Were the student to delay the turn to lookout in a real situation it could easily cost him/her his/her life, so reliance on the 'big sky' theory kicks in.
F
Suspect slow refers to an emergency break, rather than an academic steep turn, where the instructor will clear the airspace (mainly to the right, assuming the stude is sufficiently competent) BEFORE calling a simulated emergency avoidance manoevre. Were the student to delay the turn to lookout in a real situation it could easily cost him/her his/her life, so reliance on the 'big sky' theory kicks in.
F
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Thinking about it, I cant really think why you would want to do steep turns in real life!
Sure, you look up and there is another aircraft filling your screen. (I have been there once as a “passenger”). The reaction is instant and having made an immediate and very rapid turn of up to 90 degrees you establish back on straight and level and thank your God he missed you. No time for HASELL or anything else for that matter.
Perhaps steep turns are there because it is a good way of establishing the student has a reasonable mastery of the aircraft and could turn away from a conflict in real life without losing control.
For this reason they are a worthwhile practice for any pilot and a very good starting place for aerobatics. Also for this reason the student should be taught good practice because he will go on to do them by himself. A HASELL check takes 30 seconds - that’s all. Before practicing steep turns why not check you are doing them at a safe height (the aircraft might just stall or spin), it is worth checking you have put the flaps away, everything is secure, the fuel is on the correct tank and you have enough to prevent starvation and just in case the engine stops you have in mind where to go, and you are not going to surprise another aircraft.
When he practices them for himself the HASELL check will be automatic and the time he has just done some slow flying, thought he would practice a couple of steep turns, and forgotten to retract the flaps he might be grateful.
Before an aero session a couple of steep clearing turns are a nice way to start. I get the HASSEL checks out of the way then - maybe old habits just die hard!
I can guarantee you one thing whether or not you were taught to do HASELL checks before stepp turns, when you really need to avoid another aircraft filling your screen the reaction will be instant!
I suppose it is a bit like an emergency stop in a car - if you are practising you might want to glance in the rear mirror before doing it!!
Sure, you look up and there is another aircraft filling your screen. (I have been there once as a “passenger”). The reaction is instant and having made an immediate and very rapid turn of up to 90 degrees you establish back on straight and level and thank your God he missed you. No time for HASELL or anything else for that matter.
Perhaps steep turns are there because it is a good way of establishing the student has a reasonable mastery of the aircraft and could turn away from a conflict in real life without losing control.
For this reason they are a worthwhile practice for any pilot and a very good starting place for aerobatics. Also for this reason the student should be taught good practice because he will go on to do them by himself. A HASELL check takes 30 seconds - that’s all. Before practicing steep turns why not check you are doing them at a safe height (the aircraft might just stall or spin), it is worth checking you have put the flaps away, everything is secure, the fuel is on the correct tank and you have enough to prevent starvation and just in case the engine stops you have in mind where to go, and you are not going to surprise another aircraft.
When he practices them for himself the HASELL check will be automatic and the time he has just done some slow flying, thought he would practice a couple of steep turns, and forgotten to retract the flaps he might be grateful.
Before an aero session a couple of steep clearing turns are a nice way to start. I get the HASSEL checks out of the way then - maybe old habits just die hard!
I can guarantee you one thing whether or not you were taught to do HASELL checks before stepp turns, when you really need to avoid another aircraft filling your screen the reaction will be instant!
I suppose it is a bit like an emergency stop in a car - if you are practising you might want to glance in the rear mirror before doing it!!
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Lister - as discussed over a bottle of Pinot Noir this evening, I think that Linda is correct.
An aerobatic maneouver is something over 30 degrees of bank according to the FAA - therefore to ask you to do HASELL checks is really not a big issue.
If I'm dong impromptu aeros, I still do my 2 x 180 degree clearing turns as Tim Morris describes!
You are passing a test - so just do as she expects and you'll pass. Later once you have your ticket you may want to modify her requirements!!!
An aerobatic maneouver is something over 30 degrees of bank according to the FAA - therefore to ask you to do HASELL checks is really not a big issue.
If I'm dong impromptu aeros, I still do my 2 x 180 degree clearing turns as Tim Morris describes!
You are passing a test - so just do as she expects and you'll pass. Later once you have your ticket you may want to modify her requirements!!!
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I once had a Cessna 152 almost collide with me. It was passing above me from right to left and I decided to turn gently to go behind it and give plenty of clearance. Then, it suddenly commenced a diving turn towards me, I turned to keep it in sight and had a hairy few seconds trying to decide what it was doing before managing to break away. It looked as if it was trying to formate on me, he was that close.
I recognised the aircraft from its colour scheme, and went to the airfield it operates from to find out who had been flying it.
An instructor owned up to doing steep turns (with no clearing turns to establish a look out) and neither student nor instructor had seen me until I broke upwards and away from them. His excuse was that it was the end of the day, he was tired and not expecting anyone to be there.
It was a classic case of high wing-low wing obscuring the other aircraft. If I had seen him doing clearing turns it would have alerted me to his possible intentions, and he might have seen me.
Ultimately no harm done, but I was glad I was wearing a parachute. I learnt about flying from that, not sure he did though.
RD
I recognised the aircraft from its colour scheme, and went to the airfield it operates from to find out who had been flying it.
An instructor owned up to doing steep turns (with no clearing turns to establish a look out) and neither student nor instructor had seen me until I broke upwards and away from them. His excuse was that it was the end of the day, he was tired and not expecting anyone to be there.
It was a classic case of high wing-low wing obscuring the other aircraft. If I had seen him doing clearing turns it would have alerted me to his possible intentions, and he might have seen me.
Ultimately no harm done, but I was glad I was wearing a parachute. I learnt about flying from that, not sure he did though.
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I hope that I am stating the obvious when I say that it is not height that one needs for a steep turn it is suficient airspeed at all times.
Many pilots doing the traffic aviodance turn fail to retain suficient airspeed and have performance problems or in some cases even stall and remember which way the aircraft will often roll when stalled in a turn........yes back towards the object you are avoiding!
Regards,
DFC
Many pilots doing the traffic aviodance turn fail to retain suficient airspeed and have performance problems or in some cases even stall and remember which way the aircraft will often roll when stalled in a turn........yes back towards the object you are avoiding!
Regards,
DFC
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As I mention before, the point of the excercise is collision avoidance, so checks are not appropriate in this one instance.
How are you more likely to collide with someone in a 45 deg. AoB compared with a 30 deg. AoB turn?
You aren't going anywhere you haven't already looked at, unlike a stalling or aero's sortie where your lookout can be severely degraded compared to normal, despite the best of intentions.
HASELL checks are of course necessary for other manouevers, but are contrary to the point of this excercise.
One last point, just because you perform a HASELL check, it doesn't totally ensure that there is no conflicting traffic, with the closing speeds of a/c and the limited nature of human eyesight a check that happened more than a couple of minutes before can be meaningless.
I am of course assuming that everyone is dilligent in their lookout at all times, as I expect my students to be. (Having had more than one encounter with other machines, I do realise how even a "big sky" can seem very small sometimes.)
A "steep" turn shouldn't ever get near the stall, however I like people to go to max. rate and actually reach the buffet and beyond, so that they can get an understanding of how their machine reacts in (relative) security, just in case it happens for real. I wouldn't however expect someone to demonstrate this on a test unless specifically asked for.
Fuji, I can't imagine why you wouldn't want an instructor to ask you to perform an instantaneous turn, anyone who can't perform this minor task needs to do some practice!
How are you more likely to collide with someone in a 45 deg. AoB compared with a 30 deg. AoB turn?
You aren't going anywhere you haven't already looked at, unlike a stalling or aero's sortie where your lookout can be severely degraded compared to normal, despite the best of intentions.
HASELL checks are of course necessary for other manouevers, but are contrary to the point of this excercise.
One last point, just because you perform a HASELL check, it doesn't totally ensure that there is no conflicting traffic, with the closing speeds of a/c and the limited nature of human eyesight a check that happened more than a couple of minutes before can be meaningless.
I am of course assuming that everyone is dilligent in their lookout at all times, as I expect my students to be. (Having had more than one encounter with other machines, I do realise how even a "big sky" can seem very small sometimes.)
A "steep" turn shouldn't ever get near the stall, however I like people to go to max. rate and actually reach the buffet and beyond, so that they can get an understanding of how their machine reacts in (relative) security, just in case it happens for real. I wouldn't however expect someone to demonstrate this on a test unless specifically asked for.
Fuji, I can't imagine why you wouldn't want an instructor to ask you to perform an instantaneous turn, anyone who can't perform this minor task needs to do some practice!
HASELL checks are NOT required before flying steep turns UNLESS the FI intends to include manoeuvre stalling as part of the exercise, in my opinion.
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HASELL
Thanks you everyone,of course in an emergency HASELL is probably the last thing you would do.
Lots of good replies but still not a complete agreement on yes or no for the HASELL check pre 360 steep turn.
I reckon my safest bet is do one anyway,as some one said I can't be marked down for that,can I?
Lister
Lots of good replies but still not a complete agreement on yes or no for the HASELL check pre 360 steep turn.
I reckon my safest bet is do one anyway,as some one said I can't be marked down for that,can I?
Lister
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I think, like so many other things, it is a matter of opinion. There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument. And in this particular case there is nothing written down that gives us the answer.
What we, as sensible pilots, ought to do is listen to all points of view, then take all of the information and come up with our own opinion.
I don't do HASELL checks before steep turns - as others have said, I can't see the point of doing a lookout turn before doing a turn. But when I brief my students for this exercise, I explain that some other people will do HASELL checks, and I explain the pros and cons and my reasons for not doing them. Then my students, once they get their license, are in a position to make intelligent decisions for themselves rather than doing what I taught them by rote.
FFF
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What we, as sensible pilots, ought to do is listen to all points of view, then take all of the information and come up with our own opinion.
I don't do HASELL checks before steep turns - as others have said, I can't see the point of doing a lookout turn before doing a turn. But when I brief my students for this exercise, I explain that some other people will do HASELL checks, and I explain the pros and cons and my reasons for not doing them. Then my students, once they get their license, are in a position to make intelligent decisions for themselves rather than doing what I taught them by rote.
FFF
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FFF - a very good balanced answer.
The only thing I wonder if I am missing is that when I did my PPL (and it was a long time ago so things may well have changed) steep turns consisted of doing a 360, rolling out (sort of in those days) on the original heading. I thought that was what we were discussing?
I would be less concerned about HASELL checks if we are talking about practising an avoiding turn - no more than a 90 degrees turn and roll out on heading. Is that what you are referring to?
However I would still expect the instructor to have had a jolly good look around to make sure the area was clear first - which doubtless you do.
For a 360 turn I beg to disagree - as LN says it only takes 30 seconds, give me one good reason not to do it.
I dont see how a 360 degree turn can be justified as a practice emergency avoidance response in itself?
Out of interest you might also compare and contrast with an aileron roll - no change of heading, positive G throughout so no danger of objects etc flying around, no change of altitude (or perhaps an initial pitch up if you prefer). Would you do a HASELL check in those circumstances and if not why not?
The only thing I wonder if I am missing is that when I did my PPL (and it was a long time ago so things may well have changed) steep turns consisted of doing a 360, rolling out (sort of in those days) on the original heading. I thought that was what we were discussing?
I would be less concerned about HASELL checks if we are talking about practising an avoiding turn - no more than a 90 degrees turn and roll out on heading. Is that what you are referring to?
However I would still expect the instructor to have had a jolly good look around to make sure the area was clear first - which doubtless you do.
For a 360 turn I beg to disagree - as LN says it only takes 30 seconds, give me one good reason not to do it.
I dont see how a 360 degree turn can be justified as a practice emergency avoidance response in itself?
Out of interest you might also compare and contrast with an aileron roll - no change of heading, positive G throughout so no danger of objects etc flying around, no change of altitude (or perhaps an initial pitch up if you prefer). Would you do a HASELL check in those circumstances and if not why not?