HASELL
Why do it if it's not fun?
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However I would still expect the instructor to have had a jolly good look around to make sure the area was clear first - which doubtless you do.
I dont see how a 360 degree turn can be justified as a practice emergency avoidance response in itself?
(Incidentally, steep descending turns are also part of the exercise - and these do have relevance when doing PFLs: in appreciating the increased rate of descent as bank angle increases, and using this knowledge to a) keep turns shallow when short of height on a PFL, or b) fly steep descending turns as a means of loosing height if high.)
I think the comparison with the aileron roll is a bit unfair, for a number of reasons. Firstly, you say no negative g, which is true if it goes right - but I wouldn't try an aileron roll (especially as an aerobatic student, or with an aerobatic student if I was an aerobatic instructor) with loose objects, in case it goes wrong. Secondly, being upside-down is very disconcerting until you get used to it, even with only positive g, so lookout during the manoevre is quite likely to be non-existant for early aerobatics students. Also, rolls are most likely to be included in (or at least in training for) an aerobatic sequence which has lots of changes of direction, both vertical and lateral, and speed, so a HASELL check is definitely required. None of these apply to steep turns - except possibly for a slight disorientation due to increased g. But that's my personal view (and bear in mind that I'm not an experienced aerobatic pilot, so it's not a well informed view), I'll quite happily accept that your view might not be the same as mine!
FFF
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FFF, as per usual has IMHO the correct view on this.
A steep turn excercise is designed to push the students confidence and handling abilities, whilst at the same time teaching how to make avoidance turns. Any comments about aerobatic manoeurvres are mis-leading, since a steep turn is not aerobatic in any way.
Advanced turning is just that, pushing the a/c a bit closer to it's limits and seeing what happens and equipping the student with the neccessary skills to control the machine.
Whether the turn is through 90 deg. or 360 isn't really relevant to the discussion. A 45 AoB level turn doesn't need any lookout over and above what the pilot should already be doing.
Just look before you act. If your lookout is good, it will be just as effective as doing all manner of HASELL checks before the excercise.
A steep turn excercise is designed to push the students confidence and handling abilities, whilst at the same time teaching how to make avoidance turns. Any comments about aerobatic manoeurvres are mis-leading, since a steep turn is not aerobatic in any way.
Advanced turning is just that, pushing the a/c a bit closer to it's limits and seeing what happens and equipping the student with the neccessary skills to control the machine.
Whether the turn is through 90 deg. or 360 isn't really relevant to the discussion. A 45 AoB level turn doesn't need any lookout over and above what the pilot should already be doing.
Just look before you act. If your lookout is good, it will be just as effective as doing all manner of HASELL checks before the excercise.
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From a practical point of view have a think about the radius of turn at say 100Kt and 45 deg AOB. It is not very big. One could say that any aircraft that collides with you while doing a steep turn was probably going to collide with you anyway, or at least get so close as to be an Airprox. The large rapid movement of the aircraft entering the steep turn may just be the visual clue that actually highlights the aircraft and enables the other aircraft to see and avoid.
Doing a long detailed HASEll check means spending more time looking inside or close to the aircraft while flying in a straight line which actually increases the collision risk.
I would go for a good lookout and leave it at that.
Why would one ever do a 360 deg avoidance turn? The answer is simple;
You are converging with an aircraft on your right at the same level and do not spot the aircraft that you are required to give way to until it is too late to turn behind. The other pilot maintains heading and speed. You complete a steep left turn through 360deg or slightly less and pass behind the other aircraft. Thus while not an ideal situation you manage to comply with the rules of the air for converging traffic.
Regards,
DFC
Doing a long detailed HASEll check means spending more time looking inside or close to the aircraft while flying in a straight line which actually increases the collision risk.
I would go for a good lookout and leave it at that.
Why would one ever do a 360 deg avoidance turn? The answer is simple;
You are converging with an aircraft on your right at the same level and do not spot the aircraft that you are required to give way to until it is too late to turn behind. The other pilot maintains heading and speed. You complete a steep left turn through 360deg or slightly less and pass behind the other aircraft. Thus while not an ideal situation you manage to comply with the rules of the air for converging traffic.
Regards,
DFC
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FFF
Our views seem closer.
I do agree that the real point of the exercise is for the reasons you now outline.
However, as you go on to say, the object is also to enable the student to feel confident about repeating the exercise once he has his license as part of remaining current. When he does so the instructor will no longer be with him. New PPLs make mistakes. (So do old ones!). For that reason I maintain if you are doing 360 a HASELL is a useful check, if for no other reason than it emphasizes the need for a good look around before commencing, it ensures the pilot will have remembered to check the airframe is clean and given that he might just get into a spiral, he has got height on his side.
In short I would still come back to my original point - why not teach the student to do a HASELL.
A 90 degree avoiding turn I agree is something different and I can accept the justification for "surprising" the student with a few of these - no HASELL check before - but with the instructor having performed a good look out first. However, I don’t think this is what instructors do on the whole - it is the old show me a couple of tight turns please, and the student wheels it round somewhere between 320 and 400 degrees!
I agree the comparison with an aileron roll may not be entirely justified if only because the outcome could arguably be less predictable than a tight turn. However, I would always want to check there was no one around before commencing a tight turn, if for no other reason than I have not got eyes in the back of my head. However for a well executed aileron roll I am doing nothing different than continuing straight and "level" albeit the aircraft is up side down for a moment.
Say it again
"Whether the turn is through 90 deg. or 360 isn't really relevant to the discussion."
I think you have missed the point of the discussion on this occasion.
DFC
"Doing a long detailed HASEll check means"
Can see you have never done one then.
"You are converging with an aircraft on your right at the same level and do not spot the aircraft that you are required to give way to until it is too late to turn behind. The other pilot maintains heading and speed. You complete a steep left turn through 360deg or slightly less and pass behind the other aircraft. Thus while not an ideal situation you manage to comply with the rules of the air for converging traffic."
I can see us all doing that then!
"
Our views seem closer.
I do agree that the real point of the exercise is for the reasons you now outline.
However, as you go on to say, the object is also to enable the student to feel confident about repeating the exercise once he has his license as part of remaining current. When he does so the instructor will no longer be with him. New PPLs make mistakes. (So do old ones!). For that reason I maintain if you are doing 360 a HASELL is a useful check, if for no other reason than it emphasizes the need for a good look around before commencing, it ensures the pilot will have remembered to check the airframe is clean and given that he might just get into a spiral, he has got height on his side.
In short I would still come back to my original point - why not teach the student to do a HASELL.
A 90 degree avoiding turn I agree is something different and I can accept the justification for "surprising" the student with a few of these - no HASELL check before - but with the instructor having performed a good look out first. However, I don’t think this is what instructors do on the whole - it is the old show me a couple of tight turns please, and the student wheels it round somewhere between 320 and 400 degrees!
I agree the comparison with an aileron roll may not be entirely justified if only because the outcome could arguably be less predictable than a tight turn. However, I would always want to check there was no one around before commencing a tight turn, if for no other reason than I have not got eyes in the back of my head. However for a well executed aileron roll I am doing nothing different than continuing straight and "level" albeit the aircraft is up side down for a moment.
Say it again
"Whether the turn is through 90 deg. or 360 isn't really relevant to the discussion."
I think you have missed the point of the discussion on this occasion.
DFC
"Doing a long detailed HASEll check means"
Can see you have never done one then.
"You are converging with an aircraft on your right at the same level and do not spot the aircraft that you are required to give way to until it is too late to turn behind. The other pilot maintains heading and speed. You complete a steep left turn through 360deg or slightly less and pass behind the other aircraft. Thus while not an ideal situation you manage to comply with the rules of the air for converging traffic."
I can see us all doing that then!
"
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Originally Posted by stiknruda
An aerobatic maneouver is something over 30 degrees of bank according to the FAA
Aerobatic is >30 degrees of PITCH AND/OR >60 degrees of BANK.
(edited to include 'OR')
Last edited by Dusty_B; 2nd May 2006 at 12:47.
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
Out of interest you might also compare and contrast with an aileron roll - no change of heading, positive G throughout so no danger of objects etc flying around, no change of altitude (or perhaps an initial pitch up if you prefer).
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Fuji, for a bog standard steep turn, a HASELL check is unneccessary, it doesn't matter if you are going for 10 or 1000 degrees of heading change.
Lookout should be done before, during and after any manouever, negating the need for a HASELL check.
What does a HASELL check look for?
Height- sufficient to recover by a given height above ground.
Airframe- correct configuration.
Security- Loose objects, harnesses.
Engine- T's and P's, carb ht, mixture
Lookout- to clear airspace, especially that which is below you if doing Aero's or stalling/spinning.
Location (Clear of Airfields, Built up areas, Controlled Airspace, Cloud, Danger Areas.)
Most of this is irrelevant for a steep turn. The lookout is important, but I am suggesting that you do this automatically.
Can you give me a reason why all the other checks are essential to the steep turn exercise?
Lookout should be done before, during and after any manouever, negating the need for a HASELL check.
What does a HASELL check look for?
Height- sufficient to recover by a given height above ground.
Airframe- correct configuration.
Security- Loose objects, harnesses.
Engine- T's and P's, carb ht, mixture
Lookout- to clear airspace, especially that which is below you if doing Aero's or stalling/spinning.
Location (Clear of Airfields, Built up areas, Controlled Airspace, Cloud, Danger Areas.)
Most of this is irrelevant for a steep turn. The lookout is important, but I am suggesting that you do this automatically.
Can you give me a reason why all the other checks are essential to the steep turn exercise?
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SAS
Height - it is possible to end in a spiral or even a G stall and spin. Yes, I know unlikely, ham fisted agreed, but a new PPL might just do so, particularly on a type on which he was relatively new.
Airframe - what about practising a bit of slow flight before, possible to forget to put the flaps away. I have seen it done more than once.
Security - I agree not to much of a problem, but still a nuisance if the maps on the seat to your right end up on the floor.
Engine - always worth a quick check surely - it is a glance over the panel. I can think of at least one type where if you have a quarter of a tank or less of fuel you can end up with starvation issues.
Lookout - the most important. See the comment earlier on this thread by Rallye Driver.
Location - not a good idea to be doing steep turns in the same area to often. The fact is instructors and pilots will often do not one steep turn but put a few together one after the other.
Having read the posts I agree you can easily talk yourself out of a HASELL and might even be right to do so. Steep turns in proficient hands should not the slightest of issues and other than a good lookout, dispense with the rest. However it is 30 seconds out of your life, it is a good and quick nemonic, and it only needs to avoid a problem once to have proved its worth.
.. .. .. so why not?
Height - it is possible to end in a spiral or even a G stall and spin. Yes, I know unlikely, ham fisted agreed, but a new PPL might just do so, particularly on a type on which he was relatively new.
Airframe - what about practising a bit of slow flight before, possible to forget to put the flaps away. I have seen it done more than once.
Security - I agree not to much of a problem, but still a nuisance if the maps on the seat to your right end up on the floor.
Engine - always worth a quick check surely - it is a glance over the panel. I can think of at least one type where if you have a quarter of a tank or less of fuel you can end up with starvation issues.
Lookout - the most important. See the comment earlier on this thread by Rallye Driver.
Location - not a good idea to be doing steep turns in the same area to often. The fact is instructors and pilots will often do not one steep turn but put a few together one after the other.
Having read the posts I agree you can easily talk yourself out of a HASELL and might even be right to do so. Steep turns in proficient hands should not the slightest of issues and other than a good lookout, dispense with the rest. However it is 30 seconds out of your life, it is a good and quick nemonic, and it only needs to avoid a problem once to have proved its worth.
.. .. .. so why not?
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I am assuming that someone as ham fisted as could be imagined, shouldn't be anywhere near an aircraft and certainly wouldn't be stting their PPL test.
Height- anyone as incompetent enough as to stall out of a steep turn shouldn't be allowed to fly solo, same for spiral dive recognition and recovery. If you are going to be pushing the machine into max. rate and "nibbling the buffet" then this should be treated as an SSAT exercise and flown as such.
Airframe- whilst flaps will often decrease the allowable load factor on an aircraft, they usually don't do it to the extent where a steep turn should cause any problems, even a 60 deg AoB only has a load factor of 2. As to someone forgetting to put flaps up after a slow flight practise, see my point about height!
Engine- Hopefully you are monitoring the engine properly as part of your routine flying, why do you need any special checks? The engine isn't being put under any undue stress in a steep turn.
Lookout- Again, you should be doing this as per usual, common sense dictates you do what you feel comfortable, but I personally don't think anything out of the ordinary needs to be done. (Nor do any other FI's or Examiners I've ever worked with.)
Location- Again basic airmanship dictates your points already. Don't annoy the neighbours!
Seperate checks aren't necessary since as a competent pilot you should be doing all of this already.
If you want to do a HASELL, then go ahead, I think it's unneccessary however.
Height- anyone as incompetent enough as to stall out of a steep turn shouldn't be allowed to fly solo, same for spiral dive recognition and recovery. If you are going to be pushing the machine into max. rate and "nibbling the buffet" then this should be treated as an SSAT exercise and flown as such.
Airframe- whilst flaps will often decrease the allowable load factor on an aircraft, they usually don't do it to the extent where a steep turn should cause any problems, even a 60 deg AoB only has a load factor of 2. As to someone forgetting to put flaps up after a slow flight practise, see my point about height!
Engine- Hopefully you are monitoring the engine properly as part of your routine flying, why do you need any special checks? The engine isn't being put under any undue stress in a steep turn.
Lookout- Again, you should be doing this as per usual, common sense dictates you do what you feel comfortable, but I personally don't think anything out of the ordinary needs to be done. (Nor do any other FI's or Examiners I've ever worked with.)
Location- Again basic airmanship dictates your points already. Don't annoy the neighbours!
Seperate checks aren't necessary since as a competent pilot you should be doing all of this already.
If you want to do a HASELL, then go ahead, I think it's unneccessary however.
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S it AS
Yes but playing devil's advocate by the same definition why would you ever do a HASELL check.
Say you were doing a couple of aeros
- if you are competent there is no possibility of stalling or spinning
- you have of course been monitoring the engine properly anyway, and its injected so no worries there
- lookout and location - as you say you are doing that all the time anyway
- location - well you alternate where and when you go so we can ignore that one as well
In short just forget about HASELL checks all together.
No - surely any checklist is to ensure you have covered the essentials just because there has been plenty of cases of missing the blindingly obvious. Moreover it is very easy to judge the situation from your own pint of view - very current, flying regularly. What about the point of view of the PPL who is a bit rusty, thinks he will do a bit of aerial work before his GFT, hasnt done any steep turns or slow flight for well .. .. .. Ideal - probably not, does it happen - yes. A quick HASELL which he will remember from his training will cover the basics, re-ensure he is aware of some of the issues he should be thinking about and generally not do anyone any harm.
OK - I am biased. I had a couple of brilliant aero instructors - one a display pilot the other an RAF aero instructor. The very first lesson was tight turns, OK really tight turns, and we did a HASELL check before. We did a HASELL check after that before every session unitl it just became automatic. It takes less than 30 seconds I have timed it. I still find it just sets up the correct mind set before doing any excercises.
As you correctly say it is up to the individual. I respect your point of view but I hope I have set out clearly mine.
Yes but playing devil's advocate by the same definition why would you ever do a HASELL check.
Say you were doing a couple of aeros
- if you are competent there is no possibility of stalling or spinning
- you have of course been monitoring the engine properly anyway, and its injected so no worries there
- lookout and location - as you say you are doing that all the time anyway
- location - well you alternate where and when you go so we can ignore that one as well
In short just forget about HASELL checks all together.
No - surely any checklist is to ensure you have covered the essentials just because there has been plenty of cases of missing the blindingly obvious. Moreover it is very easy to judge the situation from your own pint of view - very current, flying regularly. What about the point of view of the PPL who is a bit rusty, thinks he will do a bit of aerial work before his GFT, hasnt done any steep turns or slow flight for well .. .. .. Ideal - probably not, does it happen - yes. A quick HASELL which he will remember from his training will cover the basics, re-ensure he is aware of some of the issues he should be thinking about and generally not do anyone any harm.
OK - I am biased. I had a couple of brilliant aero instructors - one a display pilot the other an RAF aero instructor. The very first lesson was tight turns, OK really tight turns, and we did a HASELL check before. We did a HASELL check after that before every session unitl it just became automatic. It takes less than 30 seconds I have timed it. I still find it just sets up the correct mind set before doing any excercises.
As you correctly say it is up to the individual. I respect your point of view but I hope I have set out clearly mine.
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How about a quick HASELL check every time we turn the aeroplane at all then?!? Might make circuit flying a bit busier.....
My own views echo slow's pretty much exactly, won't restate what he has done very comprehensively.
The oldest and most highly regarded Flying School in the world sees no requirement for HASELLs before steep turns!
My own views echo slow's pretty much exactly, won't restate what he has done very comprehensively.
The oldest and most highly regarded Flying School in the world sees no requirement for HASELLs before steep turns!
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Fuji,
The problem with pilots doing extra checks is that they end up as words without actions.
Even a display pilot would not claim that every manoeuvre is without any posibility of not working out as planned.
Problem is it seems that for your aero sorte, the H - Height is simply that you start at several thousand feet. For many others, Height means start height, manoeuvre heights, top and bottom, minimum height over the top, end height, authorised minimum, obstacles and no go areas.
Location includes start point, display line, wind effects, end point, escape routes, avoid areas.
Lookout means checking that the display box (or practice box) is clear and is a continuous process not a "I'll do a 360 and if I don't see anything then I can blast away"!
A proper HASELL check is not simply a check of current situation but a review of future situations and limits.
Perhaps the most frightening thing about flying a steep turn is that some prat who is in the overtaking position will be doing a stupid barrelroll (thinking it is an aileron roll) and not paying attention to what they should be doing in that position.
The closest Airprox that I have had was when I was straight and level in good VMC at a constant height in a well contrasting aircraft. The other aircraft overtook about 30ft above the cockpit. Flying in straight lines is far more dangerous than manoeuvring. Movement catches the eye. Moving the aircraft round makes it more visible and if it is visible then pilots will avoid it!
Regards,
DFC
The problem with pilots doing extra checks is that they end up as words without actions.
Even a display pilot would not claim that every manoeuvre is without any posibility of not working out as planned.
Problem is it seems that for your aero sorte, the H - Height is simply that you start at several thousand feet. For many others, Height means start height, manoeuvre heights, top and bottom, minimum height over the top, end height, authorised minimum, obstacles and no go areas.
Location includes start point, display line, wind effects, end point, escape routes, avoid areas.
Lookout means checking that the display box (or practice box) is clear and is a continuous process not a "I'll do a 360 and if I don't see anything then I can blast away"!
A proper HASELL check is not simply a check of current situation but a review of future situations and limits.
Perhaps the most frightening thing about flying a steep turn is that some prat who is in the overtaking position will be doing a stupid barrelroll (thinking it is an aileron roll) and not paying attention to what they should be doing in that position.
The closest Airprox that I have had was when I was straight and level in good VMC at a constant height in a well contrasting aircraft. The other aircraft overtook about 30ft above the cockpit. Flying in straight lines is far more dangerous than manoeuvring. Movement catches the eye. Moving the aircraft round makes it more visible and if it is visible then pilots will avoid it!
Regards,
DFC
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An aerobatic maneouver is something over 30 degrees of bank according to the FAA
There was a steep turn article in "Loop" magazine last month and the writer there says your instructor may want you to do HASELL checks, I think that is how it should be left, it is up to the CFI of any particular school to decide the school standards (not done as much as it should), they will normally know the local examiners anyway. Most schools that I know do not teach HASELL before steep turns and no examiner that I know requires it, but I have no problem with any that do.
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Foxmouth - I am inclined to agree with your comments. If you feel happier doing a HASELL then do so, if not that is also fine.
DFC - thanks for your helpful comments. I still dont really understand the difference between a barrel roll and an aileron roll so I am off to look them up
.
A case of block chop head I guess.
PS The real problem of any check is indeed doing it blindly. What we need to spot is that this thread is sbout what checks might be appropriate to steep turns. What checks are needed for an aero routine are another matter for another day.
PPS Steep turns dont really constitute an aero routine.
DFC - thanks for your helpful comments. I still dont really understand the difference between a barrel roll and an aileron roll so I am off to look them up
.A case of block chop head I guess.
PS The real problem of any check is indeed doing it blindly. What we need to spot is that this thread is sbout what checks might be appropriate to steep turns. What checks are needed for an aero routine are another matter for another day.
PPS Steep turns dont really constitute an aero routine.
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Surely -
It's not what you have to do.
It's what good airmanship tells you what you should do.
If you are going to practice an unexpected manouver, it's better to do an unrequired series of checks than not - after all you are not going to be doing it that often.
It's not what you have to do.
It's what good airmanship tells you what you should do.
If you are going to practice an unexpected manouver, it's better to do an unrequired series of checks than not - after all you are not going to be doing it that often.
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Not sure I agree 100% with doing unnecessary things, rather I like to what's required, when it's needed. It leaves you more time to do the important stuff, i.e in this situation spend longer looking out, rather than take time concentrating on the engine .
I remember being told by my advanced driving instructor about when to use indicators. I maintained that I should use them at all times, even if there are no cars about, whilst he told me that my lookout should be good enough that I should be able to tell when certain things are unnecessary.
I remember being told by my advanced driving instructor about when to use indicators. I maintained that I should use them at all times, even if there are no cars about, whilst he told me that my lookout should be good enough that I should be able to tell when certain things are unnecessary.
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Trevor Thom - The Air Pilots Manual
"Prior to practising steep turns, your Training Organisation may require you to carry out the pre-aerobatic "HASELL" check"
I am utterly convinced a thorough look around is vital. Perhaps there are other elements you might want to dispense with and obvioulsy training organisations differ in their requirements.
Perhaps I just like the comfort of running a quick and simple check before .
"Prior to practising steep turns, your Training Organisation may require you to carry out the pre-aerobatic "HASELL" check"
I am utterly convinced a thorough look around is vital. Perhaps there are other elements you might want to dispense with and obvioulsy training organisations differ in their requirements.
Perhaps I just like the comfort of running a quick and simple check before
.
