Orbits
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Orbits
Just a quick question regarding orbits in the circuit. I've never been instructed to, or had the need to orbit in the circuit, but my question is, which direction should you orbit? i.e.
If you're at the end of the downwind leg, should you turn in the same direction as the circuit.
or
Should you turn in the opposite direction, so as to keep your orbit outside of the circuit?
My guess is that you should turn in the same direction as the circuit, but my only concern is that this may place your orbit within path of an aircraft on a go-around???
If you're at the end of the downwind leg, should you turn in the same direction as the circuit.
or
Should you turn in the opposite direction, so as to keep your orbit outside of the circuit?
My guess is that you should turn in the same direction as the circuit, but my only concern is that this may place your orbit within path of an aircraft on a go-around???
Last edited by VNAVSPD; 24th Apr 2006 at 18:16.
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You shouldn't orbit at an uncontrolled airfield. The ensuing mid-air with the traffic coming up behind you means you're both going to have a bad day!
On this basis the only airfield you will orbit at will be a controlled one - and ATC will tell you which way to orbit.
On this basis the only airfield you will orbit at will be a controlled one - and ATC will tell you which way to orbit.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Agree 100% with Chilli.
To add to his answer, if you are instructed by ATC to orbit but they don't specify a direction, you will hopefully have the situational awareness (from looking out and listening out) to figure out yourself which way is best, but if not, it is generally better to orbit away from the circuit, since to orbit in the direction of the circuit will take you towards the runway.
Also, if you feel the need to orbit, don't just do it - tell ATC that you are doing it. If it's an uncontrolled field without ATC, then don't orbit, find some other way of keeping out of the way - be it speed control, going around, or simply leaving the circuit until it gets quieter.
FFF
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To add to his answer, if you are instructed by ATC to orbit but they don't specify a direction, you will hopefully have the situational awareness (from looking out and listening out) to figure out yourself which way is best, but if not, it is generally better to orbit away from the circuit, since to orbit in the direction of the circuit will take you towards the runway.
Also, if you feel the need to orbit, don't just do it - tell ATC that you are doing it. If it's an uncontrolled field without ATC, then don't orbit, find some other way of keeping out of the way - be it speed control, going around, or simply leaving the circuit until it gets quieter.
FFF
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Sorry guys, I realise my post suggests that Orbiting is something that I might consider under my own steam. DEFINATELY NOT.
The question arose after visiting Southend a few weeks ago. The circuit was very quiet, but it got me thinking. If ATC instructed me to orbit, in which direction would I turn?
The question arose after visiting Southend a few weeks ago. The circuit was very quiet, but it got me thinking. If ATC instructed me to orbit, in which direction would I turn?
Last edited by VNAVSPD; 25th Apr 2006 at 12:49.
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Variously, I've heard orbit left and orbit right (direct instruction from ATC in controlled airspace which provided the neccesary information).
I also recall an orbit is just that. One, not plural.
A hold (ICAO std) has a specific pattern whereas an orbit is basically a slowing down/ distancing thing.
In a helicopter, we just slow down and hover, but sometimes in nicer to go round to see what's behind you.
h-r
I also recall an orbit is just that. One, not plural.
A hold (ICAO std) has a specific pattern whereas an orbit is basically a slowing down/ distancing thing.
In a helicopter, we just slow down and hover, but sometimes in nicer to go round to see what's behind you.
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IMHO, orbits anywhere in the circuit are a disaster waiting to happen, even at controlled fields. Rather a go-around from whatever circuit position, advising ATC of my intentions, even if this means going away and rejoining.
Answer to SPD's post: Left, unless otherwise told or ground signals dictate otherwise. Incidentally, if the Southend circuit was quiet, why the instruction to orbit?
Answer to SPD's post: Left, unless otherwise told or ground signals dictate otherwise. Incidentally, if the Southend circuit was quiet, why the instruction to orbit?
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Originally Posted by DubTrub
IMHO, orbits anywhere in the circuit are a disaster waiting to happen, even at controlled fields. Rather a go-around from whatever circuit position, advising ATC of my intentions, even if this means going away and rejoining.
Answer to SPD's post: Left, unless otherwise told or ground signals dictate otherwise. Incidentally, if the Southend circuit was quiet, why the instruction to orbit?
Answer to SPD's post: Left, unless otherwise told or ground signals dictate otherwise. Incidentally, if the Southend circuit was quiet, why the instruction to orbit?
Second VNAVSPD was not asked to do an orbit but was querying what he should do if he was. The answer is simple do what the controller asks and in the unlikely event that no direction is specified, ask which way to turn. And just because the circuit was quiet doesn't mean that an orbit will not be wanted - if there is a need to fit in behind a straight-in approach an orbit can be very handy and avoids extending the downwind leg too far.
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On my QXC, I had to make the required landings at Norwhich and Southend. Into Norwich there was a rain shower over the end of the runway and an incoming 737. They advised me to make a left hand orbit on a right hand circuit. Ie away from the circuit. On completing the orbit the 737 was still on final, so was advised by ATC to set a swquak code and ineffect turn left out the circuit and rejoin on the downwind leg, making it a big orbit. This was the first time I had done an orbit in the circuit and was pretty hairy as it was on my QXC but soon realised that the ATC new what they where doing and prompty guided me accordingly.
On the 2nd leg I was landing into Southend. Left hand circuits into 06. ATC told me to do 1 orbit to the right, They even told me it wa because the plane in front was slower than me and to keep the spacing. I guess like most we put our confidence in these people, It certainly helped me to know why I was doing them rather than just being told " orbit " with out any clear instruction.
On the 2nd leg I was landing into Southend. Left hand circuits into 06. ATC told me to do 1 orbit to the right, They even told me it wa because the plane in front was slower than me and to keep the spacing. I guess like most we put our confidence in these people, It certainly helped me to know why I was doing them rather than just being told " orbit " with out any clear instruction.
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Based at Stapleford.
So it was Stapleford, Ipswich, lowestoft, Norwich.
Then Norwich, Lowestoft, Ipswich and Southend.
Southend to Stapleford.
Norwich ATC where brilliant, if all ATC where A) that good and B) that helpful/friendly it would be a happier sky!
So it was Stapleford, Ipswich, lowestoft, Norwich.
Then Norwich, Lowestoft, Ipswich and Southend.
Southend to Stapleford.
Norwich ATC where brilliant, if all ATC where A) that good and B) that helpful/friendly it would be a happier sky!
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Lister,
Good beers last night!
Orbitting when arriving at ATC fields is certainly not uncommon and I'd get Gerry/Linda to show you one if you are uncomfortable - however given that this is your big weekend show, you are probably most capable!
Good luck
Stik
Good beers last night!
Orbitting when arriving at ATC fields is certainly not uncommon and I'd get Gerry/Linda to show you one if you are uncomfortable - however given that this is your big weekend show, you are probably most capable!
Good luck
Stik
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Originally Posted by littco
Norwich ATC where brilliant, if all ATC where A) that good and B) that helpful/friendly it would be a happier sky!
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You can pretty much (dare I say) guess when something like an orbit is required. There are other ways of avoiding things like incoming heavies or rain showers, most notably the advice given to leave and come back later. You could also extend whichever leg you're on after you've let atc know. I've usually been given a choice namely "G-AB, extend downwind rwy 23, or orbit. Heavy straight in rwy 23 long final". As for an orbit meaning just one 360 degree turn, I've never heard that before, but it makes sense. My instructors always taught me to use my judgement and if it doesn't seem safe to break orbit, call up atc with "G-AB, continuing orbit, base for rwy 23". Also helps in case they've forgotten about you
As for which way to orbit, out from the circuit seems soo much safer to me. Im thinking there's no set definition?
I thought orbitting was mostly done at airfields with different classifications of traffic (jets, helis, GA, business etc) not necessarily at say a busy GA airfield where all types are 'light'
ffw
As for which way to orbit, out from the circuit seems soo much safer to me. Im thinking there's no set definition?
I thought orbitting was mostly done at airfields with different classifications of traffic (jets, helis, GA, business etc) not necessarily at say a busy GA airfield where all types are 'light'ffw
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Interesting to see debate.
I was taught; do; and have taught that an orbit is left, unless told otherwise, and is at rate one.
Therefore if controller wants to delay you by six minutes, he will instruct you to complete three orbits.
Pilot should report orbit/s complete.
I will add that they are to be tangential to Earths surface, i.e. not loops up or down (although no harm in asking).
I was taught; do; and have taught that an orbit is left, unless told otherwise, and is at rate one.
Therefore if controller wants to delay you by six minutes, he will instruct you to complete three orbits.
Pilot should report orbit/s complete.
I will add that they are to be tangential to Earths surface, i.e. not loops up or down (although no harm in asking).
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I once had to orbit during my PPL solo time due to another aircraft blindly entering the circuit and nearly hitting the aircraft in front of me. I made a left hand orbit in a right hand circuit to give spacing (as best advised by the aircraft ahead) and was advised by my instructor when on the ground (if my memory serves me correctly) that I should have made a right hand orbit....this of course was a few years ago, theres a slight possibility that it could be vice versa!
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Being asked to orbit is pretty common place at Coventry (especially now that the Thomsonfly jets are in and out on more frequent basis) whether in the circuit or on the fringe in the local area. I'm not sure if there are any set rules for which way the orbit should be in the circuit but a rule of thumb based on my experiences so far are; RH circuit LH orbit, LH circuit RH orbit which turns you away from the circuit pattern and allows you the opportunity to see and avoid any conflicting down wind traffic. Bottom line - do as the ATC ask unless you can see a danger that they can't and don't be afraid to communicate if unsure.
Orbits on first solo - Nightmare!
Orbits on first solo - Nightmare!
Orbits have been a way of life for many years at EGHH and I cannot remember ever being left in any doubt as to which way to orbit by ATC and always away from the circuit. The only time they don't tell you is when you are told to hold at a VRP prior to entering the zone. Then I always orbit left.
I had to orbit on the downwind for 09 at East Mids on my QXC to allow for an incoming holiday jet. Can't remember if I was told right hand or not, but it seemed fairly obvious to do so away from the runway.
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Being based at EGNX, orbits in the circuit are a very common event. Orbits can last upto 15 mins pending jet traffic conditions. EGNX ATC will also have you orbiting at the entry exit lanes if required. 'Tis the way of the world here and provides good practice on your airmanship skills in flying tight box sections or relatively tight circles (harder than the boxes) whilst maintaining a solid 1000' QFE. Consideration must also be given to the airfield winds to prevent drift towards the runway as well as local noise abatement.
I have on one occassion been told on v.short finals to return to base leg for orbit and hold due to jet traffic up the chuffer storming down the glide alot quicker than ATC expected. Not a pleasant encounter at 300' over the M1, full flap and 60kts to turn tail.
To answer the question, ATC do not tell you which way to turn in relation to the runway, but it is clear when requested to do so, to make the initial turn away from the runway.
I have on one occassion been told on v.short finals to return to base leg for orbit and hold due to jet traffic up the chuffer storming down the glide alot quicker than ATC expected. Not a pleasant encounter at 300' over the M1, full flap and 60kts to turn tail.
To answer the question, ATC do not tell you which way to turn in relation to the runway, but it is clear when requested to do so, to make the initial turn away from the runway.