Ditching, what may happen?
Join Date: Oct 2003
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DP,
The military have a system that I believe is now being used on some N Sea helo flights (not the rebreather system the pax get). It seems very similar to a system available to Sports divers and is based on a cylinder about the size of a beer can with a regulator and mouth peice on top. Small enough to fit in the pocket on a lifejacket (all be it a big life jacket). Does require formal training before use.
The military have a system that I believe is now being used on some N Sea helo flights (not the rebreather system the pax get). It seems very similar to a system available to Sports divers and is based on a cylinder about the size of a beer can with a regulator and mouth peice on top. Small enough to fit in the pocket on a lifejacket (all be it a big life jacket). Does require formal training before use.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Just a few thoughts here:
Once the aircraft is fully submerged, it will sink at a substantial vertical speed. Ships have been known to go down at something like 50mph, breaking up into several pieces upon impact. So if you aren't out before this point, you've had it (unless the water is pretty shallow) so no need to worry about underwater breathing options. I've done the BSAC course so I know one could get out from 50-100m deep if one was quick but I doubt most people, suddenly submerged in pitch black freezing water and with their eardrums punctured etc would manage it.
A drysuit is nice but the fact is that most people won't wear them. What everybody could do is carry a raft, yet it's common knowledge that most over-Channel flights don't carry one. So there is a lot of hypocrisy in this area.
Also I don't think they will find you bobbing up and down in a big swell in a drysuit unless you also have an EPIRB deployed, or they get lucky.
To add to the checklist: chuck all headsets in the boot. This prevents getting tangled up in the cables when trying to get out. The engine has failed so it should be quiet enough
I carry a raft (an American Survival Products one; the better quality RFD ones sold by Transair etc are too heavy for most women/children to move about) with a canopy, get it overhauled by SEMS every 2 years. It cost about £1200. The Kannad 406 EPIRB cost about £500. The probability of the raft not opening is of the order of 1%. Multiply that by the tiny chance of an engine failure and the odds make this a pretty good escape route.
The really obvious thing, if in a PA28, is not to position an elderly or otherwise not very fast moving person near the only door!
Once the aircraft is fully submerged, it will sink at a substantial vertical speed. Ships have been known to go down at something like 50mph, breaking up into several pieces upon impact. So if you aren't out before this point, you've had it (unless the water is pretty shallow) so no need to worry about underwater breathing options. I've done the BSAC course so I know one could get out from 50-100m deep if one was quick but I doubt most people, suddenly submerged in pitch black freezing water and with their eardrums punctured etc would manage it.
A drysuit is nice but the fact is that most people won't wear them. What everybody could do is carry a raft, yet it's common knowledge that most over-Channel flights don't carry one. So there is a lot of hypocrisy in this area.
Also I don't think they will find you bobbing up and down in a big swell in a drysuit unless you also have an EPIRB deployed, or they get lucky.
To add to the checklist: chuck all headsets in the boot. This prevents getting tangled up in the cables when trying to get out. The engine has failed so it should be quiet enough
I carry a raft (an American Survival Products one; the better quality RFD ones sold by Transair etc are too heavy for most women/children to move about) with a canopy, get it overhauled by SEMS every 2 years. It cost about £1200. The Kannad 406 EPIRB cost about £500. The probability of the raft not opening is of the order of 1%. Multiply that by the tiny chance of an engine failure and the odds make this a pretty good escape route.
The really obvious thing, if in a PA28, is not to position an elderly or otherwise not very fast moving person near the only door!
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Some time ago, a friend of mine ditched in the Channel (midway between Scilly Isles and Lands End) in a Grob 109 (appropriately registered G-WAVE to be specific). Malcolm, being a gentlemany sort of chap, leapt into the water as soon as it stopped with the intention of hanging onto the tail so that the aircarft could float in a "flat" attitude. This would have the benefit of allowing his wife to remain dry inside the plane whilst they waited for the Lifeboat. He kept falling of the tail as the swell went through and all the while his wife (charming lady, Margaret was her name if I recall correctly) remained dry inside. When the lifeboat did come, all she did was walk into the boat with only her shoes getting wet. Malcolm wished he'd stayed inside with her!
Only when the lifeboat attempted to tow the plane for salvage (with a rope around the prop) did the thing sink. But as soon as the rope was cut, it bobbed back up to the surface. Salvage was effected by towing it backwards. It buggered the ailerons, but so what. Marvellous stuff this Tupperware.
What will happpen to yours? Who knows. But at least ditching is survivable in style! The really important thing he did was to make a proper "Mayday" call thus ensuring rescue in minimum time.
PM.
Only when the lifeboat attempted to tow the plane for salvage (with a rope around the prop) did the thing sink. But as soon as the rope was cut, it bobbed back up to the surface. Salvage was effected by towing it backwards. It buggered the ailerons, but so what. Marvellous stuff this Tupperware.
What will happpen to yours? Who knows. But at least ditching is survivable in style! The really important thing he did was to make a proper "Mayday" call thus ensuring rescue in minimum time.
PM.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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A friend of mine who sails pointed out to me the other day that landing next to a ship might not be all it's cracked up to be - most of them are on autopilot and no-one's monitoring 121.5...
Tim
Tim
Might be some interesting material here:
http://www.equipped.com/ditchbib.htm
And here:
http://www.equipped.com/ditchtoc.htm
Quite a read by the looks of it...
http://www.equipped.com/ditchbib.htm
And here:
http://www.equipped.com/ditchtoc.htm
Quite a read by the looks of it...
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Ships don't monitor 121.50 because they do not generally carry any radio equipment covering the aeronautical frequencies - nor are they obliged to.
Ships do operate under auto-pilot most of the time when at sea, but they are obliged to keep a good look out. However, this doesnt necessarily release another pair of eyes to look out for falling bits of aluminium as, during daylight hours, ships may only have a single multi-tasking person on the bridge, he/she/it's (hereafter referred to as 'he') the navigator, the lookout, the collision avoidance bloke and the communications officer etc etc.
He may be plotting a position in the chart room just as your precious aeronautical steed plops into the oggin and will very probably miss the splash. He may not hear you as, presumably your engine has given up the ghost and you are in glide mode. This isnt helped as ships can be noisy beasts with a whacking great diesel popping away just behind the bridge. There's also the rattling bulkheads and the wind whistling through the rigging. The bridge doors may be closed too.
This officer may not react as you would have hoped. It depends on their training (a subject close to my heart).
The ship may be a ponderous beast. Just imagine a large vessel trying to undertake a turn and to stop in time to get alongside a sinking aircraft. It takes time, searoom and no small measure of skill.
My advice is to transmit a Mayday to whichever frequency you are monitoring, if no response and if you're not already on it, go to 121.50 .
My first landing option would be to land just ahead of a yacht or motor cruiser thingy.
Second option - a fishing vessel.
Third - a small coastal vessel/barge/warship (They are more manoeuvreable than the larger vessels)
Fourth - A Ferry
Fifth - another vessel.
Last choice - a large Flag of Convenience bulker/oil tanker/container vessel
Just my thoughts after 35 years at sea.
Ships do operate under auto-pilot most of the time when at sea, but they are obliged to keep a good look out. However, this doesnt necessarily release another pair of eyes to look out for falling bits of aluminium as, during daylight hours, ships may only have a single multi-tasking person on the bridge, he/she/it's (hereafter referred to as 'he') the navigator, the lookout, the collision avoidance bloke and the communications officer etc etc.
He may be plotting a position in the chart room just as your precious aeronautical steed plops into the oggin and will very probably miss the splash. He may not hear you as, presumably your engine has given up the ghost and you are in glide mode. This isnt helped as ships can be noisy beasts with a whacking great diesel popping away just behind the bridge. There's also the rattling bulkheads and the wind whistling through the rigging. The bridge doors may be closed too.
This officer may not react as you would have hoped. It depends on their training (a subject close to my heart).
The ship may be a ponderous beast. Just imagine a large vessel trying to undertake a turn and to stop in time to get alongside a sinking aircraft. It takes time, searoom and no small measure of skill.
My advice is to transmit a Mayday to whichever frequency you are monitoring, if no response and if you're not already on it, go to 121.50 .
My first landing option would be to land just ahead of a yacht or motor cruiser thingy.
Second option - a fishing vessel.
Third - a small coastal vessel/barge/warship (They are more manoeuvreable than the larger vessels)
Fourth - A Ferry
Fifth - another vessel.
Last choice - a large Flag of Convenience bulker/oil tanker/container vessel
Just my thoughts after 35 years at sea.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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Although I currentl carry a life raft I am dubious about the practicality of getting it out (can't keep it on the front seat as our aircraft is stick controlled). If left in the back it may impact us on arrival.
I have opted for immersion suits and have bought for myself and my wife the sort used in North Sea helicopter operations (from The Shark Group - if anyone interested contact me for more details but be warned they are £500 each!). These are worn fully done up while over water.
It is not uncomfortable to wear them and they do give a tremendous feeling of security while you are wearing them, which is the important bit.
Before every trip over the sea we confirm the actions of each person in case of emergency as part of our pre flight briefing.
Following all the comments above, I have ammended my check list to contain 4 vital actions on arrival instead of three;
1. Throw headsets in back
2. undo seat belt
3. get yourself out
4. pull hard to inflate life jacket.
This discussion has helped me a great deal on this subject and I hope will have helped others,
I have opted for immersion suits and have bought for myself and my wife the sort used in North Sea helicopter operations (from The Shark Group - if anyone interested contact me for more details but be warned they are £500 each!). These are worn fully done up while over water.
It is not uncomfortable to wear them and they do give a tremendous feeling of security while you are wearing them, which is the important bit.
Before every trip over the sea we confirm the actions of each person in case of emergency as part of our pre flight briefing.
Following all the comments above, I have ammended my check list to contain 4 vital actions on arrival instead of three;
1. Throw headsets in back
2. undo seat belt
3. get yourself out
4. pull hard to inflate life jacket.
This discussion has helped me a great deal on this subject and I hope will have helped others,
Join Date: May 2005
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Ditching anywhere around uk waters, especially North Sea you are unlikely to survive very long in the water(if you survive impact) due to water taking heat from your body more than 25 times faster than air. Increase your chances by wearing an imersion suit. Many ditching/drownings occur due to cold shock as you involuntery take a huge breath as you contact the cold water, this can be dealt with by having a small air bottle in use at time of ditching. Lifejackets with a sprayhood will also extend your survival time dramaticaly.
I am speaking from personal experience after receiving ditching training(including into cold water) on a regular basis over the last 18 years. Exercises were carried out in various conditions in an enviromental tank using a helicopter fuselage sim where you are strapped in and lowered into the water,sometimes quite quickly and also going inverted.
Even after dozens of simulated ditchings I find that orientation is always the key as you would not believe how easy it is to forget which is up/down or left/right. Keep one hand on your exit(if possible) and that will help.
You can obtain training yourself on this simulator at training centres throughout th uk.
www.nutecuk.com
www.blackpool.ac.uk/fosc
At nutec they can slect a surprising number of door/window configurations for you to try.
Usually the courses are set for offshore workers but I believe they do ditching only courses for pilots.
I am not trying to sell their product as I have nothing to do with them but I reckon my chances in a ditching to be gratly enhanced.
I am speaking from personal experience after receiving ditching training(including into cold water) on a regular basis over the last 18 years. Exercises were carried out in various conditions in an enviromental tank using a helicopter fuselage sim where you are strapped in and lowered into the water,sometimes quite quickly and also going inverted.
Even after dozens of simulated ditchings I find that orientation is always the key as you would not believe how easy it is to forget which is up/down or left/right. Keep one hand on your exit(if possible) and that will help.
You can obtain training yourself on this simulator at training centres throughout th uk.
www.nutecuk.com
www.blackpool.ac.uk/fosc
At nutec they can slect a surprising number of door/window configurations for you to try.
Usually the courses are set for offshore workers but I believe they do ditching only courses for pilots.
I am not trying to sell their product as I have nothing to do with them but I reckon my chances in a ditching to be gratly enhanced.
