IMC Radio Messages

[bpilatus]

Originally Posted by stuartforrest

I climbed VFR through a hole and levelled off at Flight level 80 which was the correct quadrantal and was talking to Scottish Info and had a radar service.
My question is what should my answer have been. Should I have said
I am IFR
I am VFR on-top
I am VFR India Mike Charlie

At F080 using the correct quad you are IFR. If you want to be helpful and the controller's not too busy you could say that you are IFR and 'clear on top'. A radar service (with you operating mode C) suggests that ATC know you are IFR. If Scottish Info asked the question it may have been a gentle reminder to check that your magnetic track and altitude were correct. Do Scottish Info operate a radar service?

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by Fuji Abound

If you are not in sight of the surface at or below 3,000 feet you cannot be VFR (because I thought the rules say so).

Go back and RTFQ. I think FL80 counts as being above 3000ft

In the same way if you are only 800 feet above an undercast whilst VMC and legal because you have an IR or IMCR again at any level surely you must be IFR because you are not withiin the vertical seperation for VFR.

Who the F**k mentioned 800ft? (apart from yourself)

In other words to answer the original question the only correct answer is you are IFR unless you also meet the VFR criteria - at or above 3,000 feet and meet the vertical and horizontal seperation requirements

I think that's already been established

I agree you might well want to tell the controller you are IFR but VMC.

For yours, and bpilatus benefit - why? There was nothing to stop Stuart being VFR in his scenario (He remains responsible for separation from other aircraft) or IFR (himself and ATC have joint responsibility).

The choice of Flight Rules is, subject to the criteria for VMC being met, his. He could have been under either - it's down to personal preference and airspace. It's not that difficult a concept surely.

(Receiving a radar service does not dictate what flight rules you are under - it's the flight rules that dictate the type of radar service)

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by Chilli Monster

If you'd like to get an ATC licence with an APS rating, then try and give a RAS to everyone with the separation that you have to try and achieve under a RAS, during a typical summers weekend, I suggest that opinion would last all of a Microsecond. It's not physically possible.

Then don't give RAS if your workload is that high, particularly not to the ones who have worked out that they can be IFR below 3000 ft clear of cloud and in sight of the service and behave just like VFR.

Originally Posted by Chilli Monster

If you are VFR then it's your responsibility to avoid other aircraft, not mine to tell you how to conduct your flight. Harsh, but true. Learn that fact and move on

If an aircraft is IFR outside controlled airspace, it's the pilot's responsibility to avoid other aircraft, not ATC's to tell him how to conduct his flight. Only in limited circumstances in controlled airspace does the responsibility pass to ATC. Since neither RIS nor RAS are provided within controlled airspace, I think it's fair to say that it's the pilot's responsibility to avoid other aircraft when under a RIS or a RAS, whether VFR or IFR. So why make a play of the difference?

(Personal pronouns switched to pilot/ATC in deference to your two hats!)

Originally Posted by Chilli Monster

If you can't work that out from the information you're being given then the service being given doesn't have enough data. I've never had a problem deciding - it's called having the mental picture.
You'll be wanting the aircraft flown for you next!

You'll be telling me next that you haven't ever wondered which way to turn someone with a tube in front of you, let alone from ATC traffic info.

[Islander2]

Originally Posted by bpilatus

At F080 using the correct quad you are IFR. If you want to be helpful and the controller's not too busy you could say that you are IFR and 'clear on top'. A radar service (with you operating mode C) suggests that ATC know you are IFR. If Scottish Info asked the question it may have been a gentle reminder to check that your magnetic track and altitude were correct.

Eh ... uhm .... what? Stuartforrest, hopefully you've read the PPRUNE caveats!

From another A36 pilot:

At F080 using the correct quad you are IFR. Not true. You decide (having taken account of met. conditions) ... either VFR or IFR.

If you want to be helpful and the controller's not too busy you could say that you are IFR and 'clear on top'. No, this won't be helpful ... the controller won't be in the slightest bit interested whether or not you're clear on top.

A radar service (with you operating mode C) suggests that ATC know you are IFR. No it doesn't. Day in, day out, pilots operating under VFR receive a radar service whilst transponding Mode C.

If Scottish Info asked the question it may have been a gentle reminder to check that your magnetic track and altitude were correct. No it won't, most likely they simply wanted to know the relevant information to pass to the next agency.

[Fuji Abound]

Chilli

"In the UK, with an IMCR you can fly VFR above a solid layer, so if you are in VMC you have the choice of VFR or IFR."

This was the original reply to the question. You have to read the question and the answer - not just the question.

The question did not give any indication of far above the overcast he was.

You can therefore be VMC above an undercast but not legally entitled to declare VFR even at 9,000 feet (I thought I would mention 9,000 if that is OK with you )

To widen the debate it seemed worth mentioning that you can never be VFR if at or below 3,000 feet above a solid undercast - wich if I am correct presumably everyone already knew.

So, if I am correct their may have been everything to stop Stuart being VFR in HIS scenario.

Whether or not you want to tell the controller is up to you. I personally might tell the controller I was IFR or VFR on top - why because if he was also going to be "in charge" of my let down it might be useful for him to know I would become IFR - unless you have some other idea how you are going to let down from above an undercast.

[Islander2]

Originally Posted by Fuji Abound

To widen the debate it seemed worth mentioning that you can never be VFR if at or below 3,000 feet above a solid undercast

Whoops ... air law refresher required.

[Piltdown Man]

You do as the people flying bigger stuff say, "IFR but in good visibility on top". IFR doesn't mean that you are in cloud or in poor visibility, just flying the correct level, have the appropriate navaids, you have the correct separation from the ground and are qualified, etc. You done good!

[stuartforrest]

Thanks for all the replies. This is a great thread as well. Gripping reading.

Just for a bit of extra info I was 2500 feet above the cloud and one of the scottish services passed me to another who most definately gave me RAS (he stated that the service was chaning to that) and then I got changed to yet another scottish frequency.

Normally when I go to Glasgow I speak to just one frequency. 119.87 I think but yesterday there were three different ones. Sorry I cant remember them all.

[bpilatus]

Originally Posted by stuartforrest

I am interested in specific help.

Stuart,

I hope you got the help you were looking for. Unfortunately it is all too common on here for personalities to get in the way of genuine help. I fear that has happened here, unfortunately. You sound as though you know what you are doing and you will be able to build on your experience over time.

[Fuji Abound]

"Flight outside controlled airspace
26.—(1) An aircraft flying outside controlled airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km.

(2)

(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.


(b) Sub-paragraph (a) shall be deemed to be complied with if:


(i) the aircraft is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km;


(ii) the aircraft, other than a helicopter, is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level at a speed which according to its air speed indicator is 140 knots or less and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 1500 metres; or


(iii) in the case of a helicopter the helicopter is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level flying at a speed, which having regard to the visibility is reasonable, and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface."


I am very happy to review air law but having looked at the text it stills leaves me in a quandary. VFR seems to be precluded if all conditions are not met?

[stuartforrest]

Yes thanks I have sussed Pprune out and that was why I put my first paragraph as I have got used to asking simple questions and being ridiculed in the past. That said I got my answer in the first reply from IO540 and subsequently from everyone else.

I am a little wiser tonight than I was last night about aviation and I thank the responders for that and I feel a happier that I am not making some gross mistake when I am doing my radio.

As often is the case with aviation (and many things in life) you learn the subject but you are not truly up to the job until you have practised and practised some more.

I remember my first cross country VFR flight to Cranfield from Blackpool. I am surprised I ever found my way back. Nowadays I probably could without a map and compass (not legally I know) as I have been that way so many times. All experience helps to make it easier.

Last week I took a flight to Edinburgh to do a VFR let-down (I think that is what it is called) and then break off for a VFR flight to Cumbernauld below the cloud base. Nobody showed me that on my IMC training but I just got the idea that you could do it and it all worked out fine. I would feel more confident in the future doing this.

I would be interested to hear what the radio request should have been to Edinburgh. I wanted to do their ILS down from FL40 and then break off at 1500ft to go off to Cumbernauld visually. What should I have requested. My own garbled message got the service I required but I am sure it wasnt the best radio call they got that day.

On that journey was also my first time I was asked "are you IFR or VFR" and yesterday was my second so thats why I popped the other question. The mystery is no more as the general replies seem to suggest my first choice as being best.

Thanks again for your help everyone.

I have a new question tomorrow about cloud tops. Lets see which cages I rattle

[Islander2]

That's not a correct interpretation of the law pertaining to VFR outside controlled airspace.

Rule 26 (2) (a) establishes the basic VMC for flight below FL100. Rule 26(2) (b) provides for a lessening of the 'distance from cloud' requirements if the aircraft is at or below 3,000 feet.

If you are at or below 3,000 feet, VFR is legally possible if you maintain EITHER the conditions set out in 26 (2) (a) OR 26 (2) (b).

[bpilatus]

Originally Posted by stuartforrest

Last week I took a flight to Edinburgh to do a VFR let-down (I think that is what it is called) and then break off for a VFR flight to Cumbernauld below the cloud base. Nobody showed me that on my IMC training but I just got the idea that you could do it and it all worked out fine. I would feel more confident in the future doing this.
I would be interested to hear what the radio request should have been to Edinburgh. I wanted to do their ILS down from FL40 and then break off at 1500ft to go off to Cumbernauld visually. What should I have requested.

Simply ask to use their ILS to become visual (I wouldn't suggest an altitude) and request a right/left break to proceed VFR. It might be an idea to find out what the cloud base is to make sure it is possible to continue VFR. As to whether they will let you use the ILS may depend how busy they are.

[Fuji Abound]

So you must be 1,000 feet above an undercast to be VFR?

[Islander2]

Originally Posted by bpilatus

Unfortunately it is all too common on here for personalities to get in the way of genuine help.

Stuart, PM me if you'd like to share some flight time (your aeroplane or mine) with a more experienced, A36 instrument-rated pilot.

[Islander2]

Hmmmm. So let's remind ourselves of your past persona, bpilatus:

"understannding
I am not thinking, that some of you do not like my brocken English so much, yes?

It is good to laugh at some of your postings here and I don't mind that someone thinks of me funny because I am not so clear in all my postings. I even rememeber that some people posting above I fight with before sometimes So is okay

Now I am not mad like always before when things were not so good with things. Now things are good here again "

Enough said?

[IO540]

very well spotted.

There are two ways I know of of getting down "officially" through a layer:

Ask for an ILS down to VMC. Obviously get the ATIS first and make sure the base is at least 1000ft or so; you will look a right d**k if it is OVC004 down there because then there will be no way to go anywhere VFR

Ask for a "low level letdown". I know Shawbury does this and perhaps other military airfields. They give you vectors and descents, down to something like 1000ft above a surveyed area of terrain. They may ask what plan you have if you don't become VMC at the end, so have an answer ready - basically a climbing turn back to the airfield or whatever and a diversion somewhere.

[Piltdown Man]

Or you could even ask in plain language what you want like "Radar to a visual at XXX, please." The ATC people are generally very accommodating. Your part of the bargain is to determine where you think you are and have an escape plan should you not become visual by a certain level (like MSA) or a certain distance from X etc.

[DFC]

Stuart,

Can you provide more information about your route - dep airfield, route you followerd and where you climbed to FL80. There could be a very important reason why they asked but I need to know your route first.

Regards,

DFC

[Fuji Abound]

Proceed carefully!