Permit to Fly & built-up areas
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Cambridge UK
Permit to Fly & built-up areas
I am weighing up the pros and cons of a Permit to Fly aircraft rather than CofA. There is much already discussed about the differences in servicing costs etc. and the restriction to VFR only. However, another of the rules is that you cannot fly over built-up areas.
How much of a restriction in practice is this? If taken literally then permit aircraft must weave around villages all the time. And some airfields would be impossible to get into or out of, for instance Cambridge, Rochester....
What's the logic for this rule anyway - the glide clear rule for all aircraft copes with engine failure, or is the expectation that permit aircraft are more susceptable to structural failure?
How much of a restriction in practice is this? If taken literally then permit aircraft must weave around villages all the time. And some airfields would be impossible to get into or out of, for instance Cambridge, Rochester....
What's the logic for this rule anyway - the glide clear rule for all aircraft copes with engine failure, or is the expectation that permit aircraft are more susceptable to structural failure?
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: UK
SS
In reality it isn't a problem and I don't know of anyone who operates modern Permit machines that treats the built up areas any different to a CofA machine. as far as I know, legally, it doesn't apply during the normal take-off and landing moments anyway.
Bizarre that in a 90kt Cirrus powered Auster you could fly over a village at 5000' (if it gets that high...) but in a 150+kt Lycoming powered RV you can't!
I presume the rule dates back to the days of Those Magnificant Men in Their Flying Machines and VW powered orange boxes.
Times have changed, permit aircraft performance has advanced beyond most certificated machines, the rules have stayed as they are.
In reality it isn't a problem and I don't know of anyone who operates modern Permit machines that treats the built up areas any different to a CofA machine. as far as I know, legally, it doesn't apply during the normal take-off and landing moments anyway.
Bizarre that in a 90kt Cirrus powered Auster you could fly over a village at 5000' (if it gets that high...) but in a 150+kt Lycoming powered RV you can't!
I presume the rule dates back to the days of Those Magnificant Men in Their Flying Machines and VW powered orange boxes.
Times have changed, permit aircraft performance has advanced beyond most certificated machines, the rules have stayed as they are.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Norfolk
To get to either Norwich or Colt from my strip, I need to circumnavigate the City of Norwich.
All I do is remain above 1500; agl unless ATC tell me not to and fly around the built up bits, even in the Pitts which has the glide profile of a greased crow-bar, I would only crash and die in allotments, rivers, countryside.
In reality, not an issue at all.
Stik
All I do is remain above 1500; agl unless ATC tell me not to and fly around the built up bits, even in the Pitts which has the glide profile of a greased crow-bar, I would only crash and die in allotments, rivers, countryside.
In reality, not an issue at all.
Stik
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: I have no idea but the view's great.
Originally Posted by smarthawke
SS
the days of Those Magnificant Men in Their Flying Machines and VW powered orange boxes.
the days of Those Magnificant Men in Their Flying Machines and VW powered orange boxes.
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Hampshire
I own a VW powered Orange Box and to be perfectly honest, I never really think about the built up area problem. It always seems to m that if you apply the 'land clear' rule (which applies to CofA aircraft too) then you would be very unlucky to get into a problem.
Now if you want to expand this thread, I am intrigued to know why people spend thousands of pounds on IFR kit for permit aircraft which they are not allowed to use......
Now if you want to expand this thread, I am intrigued to know why people spend thousands of pounds on IFR kit for permit aircraft which they are not allowed to use......
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Kendal, UK
Yes I agree. I would rather have every bit of kit available even if I "wasnt" going to use it.
If I had a permit plane I would fit it with all sorts as there seems to be some pretty smart kit available that I cant put on my Bonanza.
If I had a permit plane I would fit it with all sorts as there seems to be some pretty smart kit available that I cant put on my Bonanza.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
The clouds are completely illegal, I agree 
The thing is, if you have the kit to fly in IMC and you enter IMC (intentionally or accidentally) what would you prefer?
a) to live (and be illegal while in IMC), or
b) to die legally
There are loads of permit pilots who are able to fly safely in IMC - usually because they have an IMCR or even an IR (in the latter case, retired airline pilots). They just can't do it legally.
It's one of those daft debates. I once asked an instructor: if you were flying a NDB instrument approach, and the ADF was telling you that you are doing fine, and the GPS was telling you that you will die, which would you trust? His reply: "I would trust the ADF". It's a mindset particular to aviation, anally retentive to the last moment.
The thing is, if you have the kit to fly in IMC and you enter IMC (intentionally or accidentally) what would you prefer?
a) to live (and be illegal while in IMC), or
b) to die legally
There are loads of permit pilots who are able to fly safely in IMC - usually because they have an IMCR or even an IR (in the latter case, retired airline pilots). They just can't do it legally.
It's one of those daft debates. I once asked an instructor: if you were flying a NDB instrument approach, and the ADF was telling you that you are doing fine, and the GPS was telling you that you will die, which would you trust? His reply: "I would trust the ADF". It's a mindset particular to aviation, anally retentive to the last moment.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: By the big Teapot
I think I remember some comments in 'Popular Flying' about an attempt to bring this requirement 'up to date' about 12-18 months ago? Perhaps the PFA are still working on it? Can't say I find it a problem but it would be nice to have the rules brought up to date. particularly if it's putting new owners off buying or operating an aircraft on a PFA permit.
Spiney.
Spiney.
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Here and there
To get to either Norwich or Colt from my strip, I need to circumnavigate the City of Norwich.
All I do is remain above 1500; agl unless ATC tell me not to and fly around the built up bits, even in the Pitts which has the glide profile of a greased crow-bar, I would only crash and die in allotments, rivers, countryside.
In reality, not an issue at all.
Stik
All I do is remain above 1500; agl unless ATC tell me not to and fly around the built up bits, even in the Pitts which has the glide profile of a greased crow-bar, I would only crash and die in allotments, rivers, countryside.
In reality, not an issue at all.
Stik
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/Rule%2...il%202005a.pdf
Flying PFA instead of CAA should not substantially change the way you fly, except the cost of course.
Regards,
ifitaint...
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Norfolk
...of course, it's 1000ft now
When the donk quits in my aeroplane the first action is to throw something out of the cockpit, watch it descend until it impacts the ground and then voila, you have just picked your field
Stik
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
The PFA are actively working on getting the built up area restriction lifted, but in practice it makes little difference.
I have equipped my permit aircraft with IFR instruments as if I do accidentally enter cloud, I would like to live to tell the tail. I quite understand that the kit without the skill would be a waste of time, so not all PFA types would benefit. It is probably impossible to fit full IFR kit in a Nipper anyway……
Rod1
I have equipped my permit aircraft with IFR instruments as if I do accidentally enter cloud, I would like to live to tell the tail. I quite understand that the kit without the skill would be a waste of time, so not all PFA types would benefit. It is probably impossible to fit full IFR kit in a Nipper anyway……
Rod1
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From: UK
Back to the original question.
Rarely a problem. Occasionally you need to route around rather than over connurbations, but to be honest that's just good airmanship anyhow.
It is legal to fly over built up areas when taking off or landing at a government or licenced airfield. This may preclude 2 or 3 airfields somewhere in the UK which are unlicenced with connurbations in the undershoot/overshoot, but I can't honestly think of any.
Offhand I've about 600 hours in permit aeroplanes. I can think of 2 or 3 occasions where I've had to add 10 minutes onto journey time because I had to decline an opportunity to overfly a built up area that I might have done in a CofA aeroplane. Not a big deal!
G
Rarely a problem. Occasionally you need to route around rather than over connurbations, but to be honest that's just good airmanship anyhow.
It is legal to fly over built up areas when taking off or landing at a government or licenced airfield. This may preclude 2 or 3 airfields somewhere in the UK which are unlicenced with connurbations in the undershoot/overshoot, but I can't honestly think of any.
Offhand I've about 600 hours in permit aeroplanes. I can think of 2 or 3 occasions where I've had to add 10 minutes onto journey time because I had to decline an opportunity to overfly a built up area that I might have done in a CofA aeroplane. Not a big deal!
G
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: UK
Originally Posted by nipper1
You guys are not suggesting that permit aircraft are ever flown in clouds are you? That would be totaly illegal.
It would be a very good idea to have a VOR instrument and any other fancy instruiments you want.
Not to be confused with the privelages of a PPL which forbid flying out of sight of surface - a restriction that can be removed by having an IMC and a very good reason to have an IMC even if you fly a permit aircraft.