Permit to Fly & built-up areas
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
I go with Ghengis, whereas CofA aircraft tend to fly in straight lines, Permit aircraft should plane to fly around conurbations but this shouldn't add too much to the flight time
It is odd though that there are similar types on both categories and one can overfly a 'congested area' whereas the other cannot. From the ground even ATC would have problems working out if you are entitled to be where you are.
It is odd though that there are similar types on both categories and one can overfly a 'congested area' whereas the other cannot. From the ground even ATC would have problems working out if you are entitled to be where you are.
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: UK
Originally Posted by funfly
Permit aircraft are restricted to VMC which, of course, includes above cloud out of sight of the surface as long as you are 1500' clear of cloud.
Permit aircraft are restristricted to VFR (and day) only
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From: EuroGA.org
And VFR is permitted above an overcast layer in most places in the world.
The UK CAA is one of the few authorities insisting on "sight of the surface" for its UK-issued PPLs. I suppose UK clouds are extra opaque...
The IMC Rating removes this particular requirement, and the removal happens to be valid worldwide (I have this in writing from the CAA).
Should be valid on a Permit aircraft - the aircraft itself doesn't require to be in sight of the surface, I don't think.
The UK CAA is one of the few authorities insisting on "sight of the surface" for its UK-issued PPLs. I suppose UK clouds are extra opaque...
The IMC Rating removes this particular requirement, and the removal happens to be valid worldwide (I have this in writing from the CAA).
Should be valid on a Permit aircraft - the aircraft itself doesn't require to be in sight of the surface, I don't think.
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From: UK
Originally Posted by Flap40
WRONG!
Permit aircraft are restristricted to VFR (and day) only
Permit aircraft are restristricted to VFR (and day) only
(But, for IMC and IR rated pilots, the VFR minima do reduce).
G
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From: Norfolk
Permit helicopters
I'm happy to be corrected but AFAIK all permit helicopters are on CAA permits not PFA permits and as most (Rotorway Exec excepted) are ex-mil machines, I believe the rules are slightly different.
Stik
Stik
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From: Kendal, UK
Oh right. I didnt realise that. I quite fancied a Rotorway in my garage but this always put me off.........along with the fact that i dont think I would be allowed to spend the insurance etc on two flying vehicles by good lady
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From: Euroland
IO540 is correct, there is no restriction on an IMC or IR holder flying a permit aircraft VFR above an overcast layer.
The figure is 1000ft verticaly not 1500ft.
Genghis,
Remember that many licensed airfields permit residents after signing a disclaimer to operate outdside the licensed hours of operation. If one of those airfields required an approach over a built up area then the ability to that as per the permit would only apply during the hours that the airfield is licensed.
Furthermore, in some cases, the permit can be different from aircraft to aircraft so it is important for owners to carefully read exactly what restrictions apply to their individual case.
Regards,
DFC
The figure is 1000ft verticaly not 1500ft.
Genghis,
Remember that many licensed airfields permit residents after signing a disclaimer to operate outdside the licensed hours of operation. If one of those airfields required an approach over a built up area then the ability to that as per the permit would only apply during the hours that the airfield is licensed.
Furthermore, in some cases, the permit can be different from aircraft to aircraft so it is important for owners to carefully read exactly what restrictions apply to their individual case.
Regards,
DFC
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From: EuroGA.org
Genghis
Is the aircraft itself restricted to being in sight of the surface?
If not, then a suitably privileged pilot can fly a Permit plane above an overcast layer. This includes:
A UK issued PPL with an IMCR or an IR
A PPL issued by any State that does not impose the "in sight of surface" requirement
Whether this is wise etc etc etc is a separate subject.
Is the aircraft itself restricted to being in sight of the surface?
If not, then a suitably privileged pilot can fly a Permit plane above an overcast layer. This includes:
A UK issued PPL with an IMCR or an IR
A PPL issued by any State that does not impose the "in sight of surface" requirement
Whether this is wise etc etc etc is a separate subject.
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
The wording used is "congested area", which is defined as
so golf courses, gardens, playing fields and parks are included in the prohibition. Tricky one that as Popham's unlicensed and has a golf course in the circuit.
Permit restrictions here.
‘Congested area’ in relation to a city, town or settlement, means any area which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational purposes;
Permit restrictions here.
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From: Swindon, Wilts,UK
Now I know why I'm not a lawyer. Having given myself a headache the answer appears to be legally yes. But not advisable as if you found yourself on top with no hole to get down through even if your A/C were capable and you were competent to do so you would be breaking the law as soon as you got 999' from the cloud tops.
Last edited by Windy Militant; 15th March 2006 at 14:11.
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From: UK
I think it does vary with aeroplane and pilot. Please somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but unless holding an IMC or IR rating, VFR does require sight of the surface, but yes I think that an instrument rated pilot may legally fly VFR on top.
Incidentally, the "government or licenced" bit is rather contentious. A few years ago CAA did a tidying up exercise where it rationalised a lot of varying permit wordings and inadvertently (I really don't believe that this was deliberate) changed things in not quite the best way. It used to be that (most) microlight permits said something like "not over built up areas", whilst (most) FA permits said "not over built up areas except when taking off or landing in accordance with normal aviation practice". Then they all got changed to "not over built up areas except when taking off or landing in accordance with normal aviation practice at government or licenced airfields". This was great for the microlighters since it was a major new concession, but a restriction upon the PFA that they didn't see coming.
Last I heard, PFA were still hopping mad about it and trying to get back to their original wording - which hopefully everybody else (microlights, warbirds, etc.) will benefit from also.
G
Incidentally, the "government or licenced" bit is rather contentious. A few years ago CAA did a tidying up exercise where it rationalised a lot of varying permit wordings and inadvertently (I really don't believe that this was deliberate) changed things in not quite the best way. It used to be that (most) microlight permits said something like "not over built up areas", whilst (most) FA permits said "not over built up areas except when taking off or landing in accordance with normal aviation practice". Then they all got changed to "not over built up areas except when taking off or landing in accordance with normal aviation practice at government or licenced airfields". This was great for the microlighters since it was a major new concession, but a restriction upon the PFA that they didn't see coming.
Last I heard, PFA were still hopping mad about it and trying to get back to their original wording - which hopefully everybody else (microlights, warbirds, etc.) will benefit from also.
G
