Choices, choices - which PFA aircraft?
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Choices, choices - which PFA aircraft?
Oh dear.
Perusing the Silence Twister build manuals (available online), I've discovered that I can't even understand most of the instructions, let alone follow them (what does 'laminate' mean in the context of using epoxy on flight control surfaces??
I've concluded that I'd put the wings on backwards and not know any better. Harsh, but fair - I can be a bit... absentminded at times. So, I need all your opinions - I'm looking to buy (not right now, in another 6-12 months) a PFA (second hand) aircraft that has the following:
Needed:
1. 125kts cruise +/- 10kts (roughly) with 4+ hours endurance
2. 2 seats (can't leave parents/brother/girlfriend out)
3. Is distinctly aerobatic (can handle snap rolls, spins and (ideally) negative manouvres)
4. Costs less then, say €60,000 (£40,000)
Nice to have:
1. Rotax or equivalent engine (Lyc or Cont if needs be)
2. Trailerable (nice, but not that essential)
3. Can be adapted to glass cockpit (again, nice to have, but not a big deal)
Pretty tall order I think, Silence Twister is nice but only one seat and no s/h examples around. I can't think of any others really, unless you start talking RVs - a Harmon Rocket I/II maybe? Beers are on me if you come up with a good idea!
Nial
Perusing the Silence Twister build manuals (available online), I've discovered that I can't even understand most of the instructions, let alone follow them (what does 'laminate' mean in the context of using epoxy on flight control surfaces??
I've concluded that I'd put the wings on backwards and not know any better. Harsh, but fair - I can be a bit... absentminded at times. So, I need all your opinions - I'm looking to buy (not right now, in another 6-12 months) a PFA (second hand) aircraft that has the following:
Needed:
1. 125kts cruise +/- 10kts (roughly) with 4+ hours endurance
2. 2 seats (can't leave parents/brother/girlfriend out)
3. Is distinctly aerobatic (can handle snap rolls, spins and (ideally) negative manouvres)
4. Costs less then, say €60,000 (£40,000)
Nice to have:
1. Rotax or equivalent engine (Lyc or Cont if needs be)
2. Trailerable (nice, but not that essential)
3. Can be adapted to glass cockpit (again, nice to have, but not a big deal)
Pretty tall order I think, Silence Twister is nice but only one seat and no s/h examples around. I can't think of any others really, unless you start talking RVs - a Harmon Rocket I/II maybe? Beers are on me if you come up with a good idea!
Nial
Last edited by Confabulous; 14th Feb 2006 at 00:20.
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A a PFA inspector I see a lot of kit aircraft and very few impress me if I was to buld an aircraft it would be a Vans or a Falco.
The europa is not a bad aircraft and a jodel would work well but the bottom line is that most of what is avalable are toys that won't ever see 500 hours flying or are such bad kits that they won't leave the ground untill they have past through the hands of six or more builders.
There are a number of good kits that I have excluded on grounds of cost or that they did not meet your performance spec.
For most people the Vans is the answer it flys very well and is constructed in a way that most people can understand, it is easy for the semi-skilled builder to inspect and make a judgement as to the quality of his/her workmanship before the inspector sees it.
Composite aircraft require much more detailed inspection from thr PFA inspector as it is much easyer to get something very wrong with composite and for the builder not to know about it.
The europa is not a bad aircraft and a jodel would work well but the bottom line is that most of what is avalable are toys that won't ever see 500 hours flying or are such bad kits that they won't leave the ground untill they have past through the hands of six or more builders.
There are a number of good kits that I have excluded on grounds of cost or that they did not meet your performance spec.
For most people the Vans is the answer it flys very well and is constructed in a way that most people can understand, it is easy for the semi-skilled builder to inspect and make a judgement as to the quality of his/her workmanship before the inspector sees it.
Composite aircraft require much more detailed inspection from thr PFA inspector as it is much easyer to get something very wrong with composite and for the builder not to know about it.
The Alpi Pioneer 300 would fit most of your requirements. I've got one and think its the dogs boleaux. See Alpi Pioneer website
2 seat, retractable gear, aerobatic (though not certified for aeros in the UK), 135kt cruise @ 16litres/hour mogas, 4.5 hours endurance, easy to build. Not trailerable though.
Mines a pint of Stella
2 seat, retractable gear, aerobatic (though not certified for aeros in the UK), 135kt cruise @ 16litres/hour mogas, 4.5 hours endurance, easy to build. Not trailerable though.
Mines a pint of Stella
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I've got a Europa. I didn't build it myself, but bought it with 20 hours TT. I then converted it to a tri gear (I really don't like the mono's). Total cost around £35k. It now has an EFIS and Autopilot also.
Great fun to fly, 120kts, <15 litres per hour mogas, trailerable, just not certified for aerobatics in this country (it is in the US but I guess that doesn't help much?)
Great fun to fly, 120kts, <15 litres per hour mogas, trailerable, just not certified for aerobatics in this country (it is in the US but I guess that doesn't help much?)
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I must admit, your description seems to shout "Vans" quite loudly.
Not many more options really!
Thanks for the advice, owe you all a beer at my first fly-in!
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I was thinking along those lines not long ago and bought an RV-4; I wasn't disappointed.
A little restrictive if you're large or want to carry a lot of luggage.
An RV-8 gets round those problems, but would blow your budget.
Falcos - very nice - but complex structures likely to need more TLC; and probably over budget.
There are a couple of nice RV-4s on the market at the moment - asking a bit more than your target.
PM if you need to know more.
A little restrictive if you're large or want to carry a lot of luggage.
An RV-8 gets round those problems, but would blow your budget.
Falcos - very nice - but complex structures likely to need more TLC; and probably over budget.
There are a couple of nice RV-4s on the market at the moment - asking a bit more than your target.
PM if you need to know more.
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Confab,
You might want to have a look at the Sorrell Hyperbipe that Mark Hales is selling - it's on AFORS and The Hangar. Dunno much about it but it certainly ticks all your boxes...
JP
You might want to have a look at the Sorrell Hyperbipe that Mark Hales is selling - it's on AFORS and The Hangar. Dunno much about it but it certainly ticks all your boxes...
JP
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How about a Europa for £30,000 and a share in a Pits for £5000 ish? You would get the best of both worlds within your budget. I gave up aerobatics because I could not afford to run any of the aircraft which did touring and aeros well. Ended up building an MCR-01, which will tick all your boxes but the aerobatics. The above solution is your best bet.
Rod1
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A Falco suits everything but the budget (but patience would solve that one...they can be available at about RV prices) (Confab doesn't say which part of Ireland or dot at would welcome a UK pfa permit)
(Plus a Falco is not as darn common as an RV
)
(Plus a Falco is not as darn common as an RV
)
If you are not going to do the maintenance yourself then there is very little diference in cost betwen a Permit and a CofA.
If this is acceptable and you can live with non folding wings get a Fuji (a tad slow) or a Yak 18T (4 seater, aerobatic and a lovely big round engine)
If this is acceptable and you can live with non folding wings get a Fuji (a tad slow) or a Yak 18T (4 seater, aerobatic and a lovely big round engine)
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I'm in the south, in general the IAA have no problem with anyone using a PFA design, indeed we use UK PFA inspectors, or so I'm led to believe. No point in us certifying our own, we don't have the resources yet. With regard to maintenance, I'll learn as I go (via a LAME) - I trust the engine more if I know where everything is and how to fix the fixable bits 
Last edited by Confabulous; 15th Feb 2006 at 08:41.
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Harmon Rocket - is there anything else?
200 knots
climbs 3500 fpm
enough performance to get outa any kind of trouble (and OK, get into it too...so fly safe)
lands slow - awesome short field performance
fixed gear
spacious two seater
will carry anything you can get in (big luggage space)
burns no more than an RV4 if you go 'slow' (180 knots)
taildragger, but not a squirrely one
won't scare you if you get proper training and fly safe (docile)
I've owned a few machines, but this, the Harmon Rocket II, is the best aeroplane I have ever flown. By a million miles. 300 happy safe hours in the HR so far...
climbs 3500 fpm
enough performance to get outa any kind of trouble (and OK, get into it too...so fly safe)
lands slow - awesome short field performance
fixed gear
spacious two seater
will carry anything you can get in (big luggage space)
burns no more than an RV4 if you go 'slow' (180 knots)
taildragger, but not a squirrely one
won't scare you if you get proper training and fly safe (docile)
I've owned a few machines, but this, the Harmon Rocket II, is the best aeroplane I have ever flown. By a million miles. 300 happy safe hours in the HR so far...
