Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
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Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
Anyone know of anyone trying to develop a diesel conversion for the 300HP Saratoga- before I replace my time expired engine? It would seem an ideal platform, and what a result!
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
Not sure if it helps, but I know that Thielert is developing a 300hp diesel that follows along the lines of the Centurion 135... www.thielert.de
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
It sounds like a great idea, vastly extended range and cheaper per hour costs. Also a much simpler engine to operate with no carb heat, no prop lever, much better engine instruments and generally safer all round.
The catch may be the conversion costs to fit the new engine to the AC. On a 172 the engine costs £20,000 and it costs £ 20,000 to convert the plane to fit the engine. Payback only comes when the second engine is fitted. Also have you ever dealt with jet fuel. Very smelly sticky stuff, not as friendly as avgas.
The catch may be the conversion costs to fit the new engine to the AC. On a 172 the engine costs £20,000 and it costs £ 20,000 to convert the plane to fit the engine. Payback only comes when the second engine is fitted. Also have you ever dealt with jet fuel. Very smelly sticky stuff, not as friendly as avgas.
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
Nice idea but the slow develpoment of diesel engines for aicraft indicates the problems involved.
A number of companys are offering diesel engines for permit aircraft but only two have engines on C of A aircraft, with the price of avgas you would think that the move to Jet A1 would be quicker but the problem is that the biggest GA market has no incentive to change to diesel and untill they do I see progress being very slow.
I have a number of C152 aircraft that I lease to a flying club and the diesel engine could cut the cost of flying by about a third but I have just fitted two new lycoming engines because dispite the hype from the diesel engine makers not one of them has come up with an engine for for probably the most used aircraft (in terms of hours flown) in the GA fleet.
If the engine makers can't get there act together on a simple trainer with a big market and high usage what hope do you have for an aircraft such as the PA32 with a smaller market and a much more technicly chalenging instalation ?
A number of companys are offering diesel engines for permit aircraft but only two have engines on C of A aircraft, with the price of avgas you would think that the move to Jet A1 would be quicker but the problem is that the biggest GA market has no incentive to change to diesel and untill they do I see progress being very slow.
I have a number of C152 aircraft that I lease to a flying club and the diesel engine could cut the cost of flying by about a third but I have just fitted two new lycoming engines because dispite the hype from the diesel engine makers not one of them has come up with an engine for for probably the most used aircraft (in terms of hours flown) in the GA fleet.
If the engine makers can't get there act together on a simple trainer with a big market and high usage what hope do you have for an aircraft such as the PA32 with a smaller market and a much more technicly chalenging instalation ?
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
The other factor is that while the UK has no tax on avtur, and there is as yet no sign of one coming in (despite being used by countless turbine helicopters for decades) the stuff is taxed as avgas is some other places in Europe. I've heard UNCONFIRMED reports of other European countries doing this, unless an AOC is produced.
Yet another factor is that (and this I know first hand) one can get tax free avgas on production of an AOC in quite a number of places, outside the UK. I've been offered this in Greece and Italy and, I believe, France. Spain seems to forget the tax anyway if you flash a Ltd Co Air BP fuel card.
The fuel cost saving makes it worth getting an AOC even for a small flight training operation. Obviously the AOC doesn't have to relate to the school's activity in any way
You just need the piece of paper.
All this reduces the already quite small European market for diesel engines.
Yet another factor is that (and this I know first hand) one can get tax free avgas on production of an AOC in quite a number of places, outside the UK. I've been offered this in Greece and Italy and, I believe, France. Spain seems to forget the tax anyway if you flash a Ltd Co Air BP fuel card.
The fuel cost saving makes it worth getting an AOC even for a small flight training operation. Obviously the AOC doesn't have to relate to the school's activity in any way
You just need the piece of paper.All this reduces the already quite small European market for diesel engines.
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
Is the cessna 150-2 still the most prolifit trainer ? Here on the south coast while I've been flying ( 8 yrs) it's all piper 28-38 and AA5.
Anyway I see D-air are targeting the lyc. 0235 - cont. 200 replacement market, with their 100 hp 90 kg unit.
But just like car makers (ala ford zetec, sold early examples to racers and kit car marker b4 car launch) they test it out on a non certified market, pfa. These sales help fund the snails pace development and provide free geuni pigs
Besides if someone like lyc or cont. got invloved it would kill there avgas market overnight, not to mention all that profit on selling oem parts for them.
Also humans are lazy as standard. We never do anything unless we really have to, almost at the last minute.
Anyway I see D-air are targeting the lyc. 0235 - cont. 200 replacement market, with their 100 hp 90 kg unit.
But just like car makers (ala ford zetec, sold early examples to racers and kit car marker b4 car launch) they test it out on a non certified market, pfa. These sales help fund the snails pace development and provide free geuni pigs
Besides if someone like lyc or cont. got invloved it would kill there avgas market overnight, not to mention all that profit on selling oem parts for them.
Also humans are lazy as standard. We never do anything unless we really have to, almost at the last minute.
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
I heard from a CAA Surveyor last week that HM Customs and Excise were studying the use of JetA1 in light aircraft as apparently a stipulation of the duty free bit was that JetA1 musn't be used in a piston engine. This was to stop our nautical cousins using cheap fuel in their boats.
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
"a stipulation of the duty free bit was that JetA1 musn't be used in a piston engine"
Can anyone find a reference for this in the UK legislation, or in any international treaty?
Can anyone find a reference for this in the UK legislation, or in any international treaty?
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
I thought you could use cheap fuel in boats as the rule is non road use, which I think fits the bill nicely for most boats.
I stand to be corrected though. I thought I had read somewhere (probably on pprune for all I know) that they wouldn't tax A1 for aircraft use as they would have to tax it for boats also and there's a considerable number of boat owners that have voting rights. (Many more than aircraft owners).
EddieHeli
I stand to be corrected though. I thought I had read somewhere (probably on pprune for all I know) that they wouldn't tax A1 for aircraft use as they would have to tax it for boats also and there's a considerable number of boat owners that have voting rights. (Many more than aircraft owners).
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
EddieHeli I thought you could use cheap fuel in boats as the rule is non road use, which I think fits the bill nicely for most boats.
The again, older diesels run quite well on veg oil - about 25/l wholesale
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Re: Diesel engine PA32 Saratoga
airborne-artist.
I fill a boat up regularly with tax free diesel.
It is for pleasure use only and I have never had any trouble although it is red.
The problem would come if I used it in my car.
I am amazed that Grabber Brown hasnt latched on yet as I believe this is not allowed in France for example, where if i visit, I am permitted red diesel in tanks but not in loose containers.
I fill a boat up regularly with tax free diesel.
It is for pleasure use only and I have never had any trouble although it is red.
The problem would come if I used it in my car.
I am amazed that Grabber Brown hasnt latched on yet as I believe this is not allowed in France for example, where if i visit, I am permitted red diesel in tanks but not in loose containers.
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Jusr read somewhere that Theilhert (sp) have a 400 hp ? turbo charged engine on offer and it's Faa certified.
Someone in Germany is putting a pair in a B-duke. I have flown a duke, but can't remember what engines they have (he thinks is an odd one like 520-70)
Someone in Germany is putting a pair in a B-duke. I have flown a duke, but can't remember what engines they have (he thinks is an odd one like 520-70)
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The Duke has Lycoming TSIO-540 engines , as to the most prolific trainer I visited two airfields north of London both had a large number of C152's ans a smaller number of PA-28,s.
The Cessna is cheaper to opperate but not so good for IMC training as the PA-28 but there is no doubt that a diesel convertion for the C152 would sell enough units to make it a money making proposition.
The Cessna is cheaper to opperate but not so good for IMC training as the PA-28 but there is no doubt that a diesel convertion for the C152 would sell enough units to make it a money making proposition.
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A/C
My point about the 150/2 was I have been away from the GA scene for a few years. The last thing I remember was the Katana with it's low cost Rotax unit was going to wipe away the 1960's cessna fleet.? With the other side of the fence operating fairly new (leased) piper or cessna 172 (new) fleets, that are more duel purposed and return a better profit / image, busines model.
Besides. Would putting a new engine in a 1960's cessna 150 really solve all the cost problems. I know of two people who bought C150's (one US and one Reims) for circa 15K with mid time engines and c/a's. Yet they both ended up spending £5-7 k in 18 months, without even touching the engine or prop.
My point about the 150/2 was I have been away from the GA scene for a few years. The last thing I remember was the Katana with it's low cost Rotax unit was going to wipe away the 1960's cessna fleet.? With the other side of the fence operating fairly new (leased) piper or cessna 172 (new) fleets, that are more duel purposed and return a better profit / image, busines model.
Besides. Would putting a new engine in a 1960's cessna 150 really solve all the cost problems. I know of two people who bought C150's (one US and one Reims) for circa 15K with mid time engines and c/a's. Yet they both ended up spending £5-7 k in 18 months, without even touching the engine or prop.
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Isn't this technology more likely to emerge into the mass market through all new designs such as the diamond, combined with the large manufacturers of conventionally powered aircraft making a policy decision to move over to diesel. This latter seems unlikely since most manufacturers principal market is the US, where even recent fuel price increases have not tipped the balance in favour of diesel.
There seems little incentive for schools in the UK to move over due to the huge outlay and even less for the private individual, very few of whom are in a financial position to buy a new aircraft. For the cost of a new or nearly new diamond or Robin diesel you can buy an awful lot of conventionally powered aircraft with change to spare. Add to this the very real uncertainty over government plans to increase tax on Jet A-1 (at least for private of piston engine use) and the economic case is just not made out, either for conversion or for buying new, (unless you do huge numbers of hours and can recover the outlay before the government start to tax it!).
There seems little incentive for schools in the UK to move over due to the huge outlay and even less for the private individual, very few of whom are in a financial position to buy a new aircraft. For the cost of a new or nearly new diamond or Robin diesel you can buy an awful lot of conventionally powered aircraft with change to spare. Add to this the very real uncertainty over government plans to increase tax on Jet A-1 (at least for private of piston engine use) and the economic case is just not made out, either for conversion or for buying new, (unless you do huge numbers of hours and can recover the outlay before the government start to tax it!).
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Any plane that has been in use for the inevitable age of a C150 or a C152 is going to be very expensive to maintain, with annuals well into four figures and occassionally more. The engine should not feature excessively in the overall costs.
I agree with Justiciar re the U.S. market. Moreover, nobody will dare to take a chance on problems out there because that would kill the business right off. That's why Diamond are doing avgas versions for the USA; they can't take chances like they can and do in Europe.
Also, this is very much a personal preference but for the price of a DA40 TDi one could buy a ~ 2 year old TB20 which will be a far more capable serious IFR aircraft for European touring. The engine in it may be the standard vintage but when operated LOP it burns avgas as efficiently as anything else with pistons, and is a known quantity.
I agree with Justiciar re the U.S. market. Moreover, nobody will dare to take a chance on problems out there because that would kill the business right off. That's why Diamond are doing avgas versions for the USA; they can't take chances like they can and do in Europe.
Also, this is very much a personal preference but for the price of a DA40 TDi one could buy a ~ 2 year old TB20 which will be a far more capable serious IFR aircraft for European touring. The engine in it may be the standard vintage but when operated LOP it burns avgas as efficiently as anything else with pistons, and is a known quantity.
