Aerial photography
niknak
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Aerial photography
I need to take some aerial photographs of a site in Lincolnshire.
Although the photo's will be used to assist in the decsion making process of an investment in a business venture, they will essentially be for my own use and will not be sold on.
I approached a three flying training organisations at the nearest airport to the site, (I intend to visit the site on the same day I wanted to photograph it), and they all said they were unable to provide an aircraft plus pilot for aerial photography, even though I was quite happy to treat it as a "trial flight" which would take no more than 30 minutes.
I know that they all have suitable aircraft for the purpose and that a few years ago, they all would have had no problem with the request.
Are they misinterpereting the rules of flights for hire and reward, (I haven't checked the ANO!)?
If so, it's bit of a pain, because I now have the limited, and very expensive choice of hiring an aircraft and pilot for a minimum of three hours, (home up to Lincolnshire - 1.2hrs, take the photo's - 0.5hrs, land, go to the meeting, then return home -1.2hrs), or hire a professional photographer to do the same thing for me at even greater cost.
Any constructive information or suggestions appreciated, PM me if you would prefer to do so.
Ta.
Although the photo's will be used to assist in the decsion making process of an investment in a business venture, they will essentially be for my own use and will not be sold on.
I approached a three flying training organisations at the nearest airport to the site, (I intend to visit the site on the same day I wanted to photograph it), and they all said they were unable to provide an aircraft plus pilot for aerial photography, even though I was quite happy to treat it as a "trial flight" which would take no more than 30 minutes.
I know that they all have suitable aircraft for the purpose and that a few years ago, they all would have had no problem with the request.
Are they misinterpereting the rules of flights for hire and reward, (I haven't checked the ANO!)?
If so, it's bit of a pain, because I now have the limited, and very expensive choice of hiring an aircraft and pilot for a minimum of three hours, (home up to Lincolnshire - 1.2hrs, take the photo's - 0.5hrs, land, go to the meeting, then return home -1.2hrs), or hire a professional photographer to do the same thing for me at even greater cost.
Any constructive information or suggestions appreciated, PM me if you would prefer to do so.
Ta.
You might see if there is someone within reasonable distance doing baloon photography.
I met a chap in S of France a couple of years ago who does this. Remote contolled camera using video monitor and lifted by a helium baloon (about 12 ft by 8ft dia.)
Sadly much cheaper than commissioned from plane photos and beautiful pictures.
I'm sorry I removed his site from my bookmarks a couple of weeks ago as it had links to other practitioners all over Europe.
I met a chap in S of France a couple of years ago who does this. Remote contolled camera using video monitor and lifted by a helium baloon (about 12 ft by 8ft dia.)
Sadly much cheaper than commissioned from plane photos and beautiful pictures.
I'm sorry I removed his site from my bookmarks a couple of weeks ago as it had links to other practitioners all over Europe.
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A trial flight is an "air experience" flight. Part of the PPL syllabus.
Whilst aerial photography for reward is definately out, I certainly have no issue with people on trial flights taking photo's of their own homes etc. since they are doing it for no financial gain.
There is a large microscope over the activities of aerial photographers at the moment, since there are a large number of cowboy's out there doing it without an AOC.
Schools are notoriously suspicious about things like this and it is probably a case of "not sure, so we won't take the risk for only one flight."
I had it explained to by an CAA Ops inspector recently when I had a query from a student about going to a meeting whilst he was doing Nav training.
"As long as there is some training benefit, why not? It's exactly what he's going to be using his licence for when he's passed. What happens when he's on the ground is an irrelevance as long as the flight itself doesn't form part of the business deal."
Would going off for a trial lesson specifically for the purposes of taking photo's be O.K? Not in my opinion, but if you happened to be doing a trial lesson in a certain area and it happens that you took some pictures for personal use, I can't see a problem.
Unfortunately it sounds as if these photo's will be used as a basis for a business deal, so if you took it to the letter of the law there may well be some financial gain to made from them.
A bit of a narky argument, but you can surely understand why a flying school wouldn't want to risk any chance of a kicking from the CAA over this for a measley 30 mins flying time that might net them £15 at the most.
Whilst aerial photography for reward is definately out, I certainly have no issue with people on trial flights taking photo's of their own homes etc. since they are doing it for no financial gain.
There is a large microscope over the activities of aerial photographers at the moment, since there are a large number of cowboy's out there doing it without an AOC.
Schools are notoriously suspicious about things like this and it is probably a case of "not sure, so we won't take the risk for only one flight."
I had it explained to by an CAA Ops inspector recently when I had a query from a student about going to a meeting whilst he was doing Nav training.
"As long as there is some training benefit, why not? It's exactly what he's going to be using his licence for when he's passed. What happens when he's on the ground is an irrelevance as long as the flight itself doesn't form part of the business deal."
Would going off for a trial lesson specifically for the purposes of taking photo's be O.K? Not in my opinion, but if you happened to be doing a trial lesson in a certain area and it happens that you took some pictures for personal use, I can't see a problem.
Unfortunately it sounds as if these photo's will be used as a basis for a business deal, so if you took it to the letter of the law there may well be some financial gain to made from them.
A bit of a narky argument, but you can surely understand why a flying school wouldn't want to risk any chance of a kicking from the CAA over this for a measley 30 mins flying time that might net them £15 at the most.
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Hey niknak!
I'm surprised no-one's offered a "cost-share" flight with you. They get a cheaper hour's flying. you get your pics. Maybe because it's getting near Christmas the clubs are getting booked up with trials.
C'mon guys - someone help an air trafficker out. You might need him one day!
I'm surprised no-one's offered a "cost-share" flight with you. They get a cheaper hour's flying. you get your pics. Maybe because it's getting near Christmas the clubs are getting booked up with trials.
C'mon guys - someone help an air trafficker out. You might need him one day!
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"There is a large microscope over the activities of aerial photographers at the moment, since there are a large number of cowboy's out there doing it without an AOC."
Who has the microscope and who is doing the looking?
Who has the microscope and who is doing the looking?
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niknak, depending on when you need to take the pictures I would be happy to fly you FOC to Lincolnshire. obviously you would need to get to yorkshire but from where I fly most of lincolnshire isn't much more than 40 mins away.
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likewise I am at Spanhoe, I will hapilly take you for the flight free of charge and then there is no hire and reward at play.
152 so ideal for photos!
I never need an excuse to go flying!
152 so ideal for photos!
I never need an excuse to go flying!
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As long as the aircraft is operating on a public transport C of A and is flown by a CPL holder then there is no problem. An AOC is not required for commercially flown aerial photography flights in the UK. The job is classed as 'Aerial Work', and is exempt from the AOC requirement.
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If what you really want is an aerial photograph (and not the experience) there are plenty of methods of obtaining ready-made photos... try www.earth.google.com
... but if this doesn't cover the area in sufficient detail you can buy shots, that would probably be cheaper than paying for a photography trip, from
www.getmapping.com
... but if this doesn't cover the area in sufficient detail you can buy shots, that would probably be cheaper than paying for a photography trip, from
www.getmapping.com
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Hi niknak, I may be up in the frozen north ...... but I'm always looking for some fun trips to do.... just depends on how quickly you need it done.
I've got a souped up 172, good for short strips, and also used to be an ATCO in Lincolnshire .... so a nostalgia trip would be fun.
Where abouts are you an ATCO? Could we do a ScACC liaison visit (me and 10W perhaps) and see if NATS would pick up the mileage
?
I've got a souped up 172, good for short strips, and also used to be an ATCO in Lincolnshire .... so a nostalgia trip would be fun.
Where abouts are you an ATCO? Could we do a ScACC liaison visit (me and 10W perhaps) and see if NATS would pick up the mileage
?
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Just for the fun of helping you make a great aerial photograph here are a few hints. I have made a living shooting aerial photos for four years.
- if possible open the window.
- do NOT rest your arm the window frame or door
- set your camera’s shutter speed above 1000th of a second.
- circle the property and take lots of pictures, film or memory card space is much cheaper then a second flight
PT
- if possible open the window.
- do NOT rest your arm the window frame or door
- set your camera’s shutter speed above 1000th of a second.
- circle the property and take lots of pictures, film or memory card space is much cheaper then a second flight
PT
niknak
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Thank you all very much for the replies and especially for the offers of from those willing to take me up for nothing.
Unfortunately the venture has proved to be no longer viable and so there is no need for the aerial photographs, but I am very very grateful for the responses.
Thanks again.
Unfortunately the venture has proved to be no longer viable and so there is no need for the aerial photographs, but I am very very grateful for the responses.
Thanks again.
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Squawk 2650, maybe now we can hi-jack this thread.
You say: “ANW I was waiting for someone to say that. I don’t know why people think you need an AOC to do survey work??”
I am not that up to date on UK regulations but I work in a location that looks to the UK & the CAA for leadership in such matters, hence my interest.
Whilst understanding and agreeing (to a certain extent) with your argument would I be right in thinking that this is only true providing that your organisation does not have an AOC?
In other words if you have an AOC and carryout some passenger transport operations you are the classified as an air transport undertaking and therefore all flights where a passenger is carried, for whatever purposes, is then considered public transport.
The extent to which I agree with your argument stops as soon as the person climbs on board to operate the camera. Does the camera operator not count as a passenger and therefore make the flight public transport assuming reward for the flight is offered or promised.
I would be interested to hear an elaboration of your comments.
You say: “ANW I was waiting for someone to say that. I don’t know why people think you need an AOC to do survey work??”
I am not that up to date on UK regulations but I work in a location that looks to the UK & the CAA for leadership in such matters, hence my interest.
Whilst understanding and agreeing (to a certain extent) with your argument would I be right in thinking that this is only true providing that your organisation does not have an AOC?
In other words if you have an AOC and carryout some passenger transport operations you are the classified as an air transport undertaking and therefore all flights where a passenger is carried, for whatever purposes, is then considered public transport.
The extent to which I agree with your argument stops as soon as the person climbs on board to operate the camera. Does the camera operator not count as a passenger and therefore make the flight public transport assuming reward for the flight is offered or promised.
I would be interested to hear an elaboration of your comments.
As long as the aircraft is operating on a public transport C of A and is flown by a CPL holder then there is no problem. An AOC is not required for commercially flown aerial photography flights in the UK. The job is classed as 'Aerial Work', and is exempt from the AOC requirement.
If the payment is to allow you to sit there in the aircraft and take photographs, then you've just become a paying passenger.
If so, it's bit of a pain, because I now have the limited, and very expensive choice of hiring an aircraft and pilot for a minimum of three hours, (home up to Lincolnshire - 1.2hrs, take the photo's - 0.5hrs, land, go to the meeting, then return home -1.2hrs)