Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
DFC
"there is atleast 1 clever way of ensuring that your plan will not even be checked by the system"
Can you please tell me what that is?
"When you get your IR and start flying outside the UK, you will come to love the flight plan checker "
I've done plenty of flights outside the UK, both VFR and IFR (not logging PIC in the latter case, but doing all the planning and all the flying) and have spent enough time plugging routes into the CFMU checker to realise it's not an exact science.
As an incidental comment, once outside the UK, there isn't the watertight division between airways / non-airways which (as a result of London Control absolutely not offering a service to outsiders, and airways being Class A) exists in the UK. By the time you get to say Greece, ATS really really like to see an FP that lies on IFR routes; it's navigated IFR, flown under radar control; the difference is that it is called "VFR", you don't need an IR, and you don't have to wait hours before departure. Even flying through Belgium and seeing the ease with which Brussels Departures clears you through extremely busy Class C at say FL055 makes one realise what an unnecessary meal the Brits make of all this.
"there is atleast 1 clever way of ensuring that your plan will not even be checked by the system"
Can you please tell me what that is?
"When you get your IR and start flying outside the UK, you will come to love the flight plan checker "
I've done plenty of flights outside the UK, both VFR and IFR (not logging PIC in the latter case, but doing all the planning and all the flying) and have spent enough time plugging routes into the CFMU checker to realise it's not an exact science.
As an incidental comment, once outside the UK, there isn't the watertight division between airways / non-airways which (as a result of London Control absolutely not offering a service to outsiders, and airways being Class A) exists in the UK. By the time you get to say Greece, ATS really really like to see an FP that lies on IFR routes; it's navigated IFR, flown under radar control; the difference is that it is called "VFR", you don't need an IR, and you don't have to wait hours before departure. Even flying through Belgium and seeing the ease with which Brussels Departures clears you through extremely busy Class C at say FL055 makes one realise what an unnecessary meal the Brits make of all this.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
IO540,
"there is atleast 1 clever way of ensuring that your plan will not even be checked by the system"
Can you please tell me what that is?
Well since you don't believe I fly anything more than models, why not either spend a few hours trawling through the books or as a better option ask White Hart or anyone else that you would believe if they told you.
Regards,
DFC
PS Agree totally about flights abroad. The UK's service is good but far too fragmented.
"there is atleast 1 clever way of ensuring that your plan will not even be checked by the system"
Can you please tell me what that is?
Well since you don't believe I fly anything more than models, why not either spend a few hours trawling through the books or as a better option ask White Hart or anyone else that you would believe if they told you.
Regards,
DFC
PS Agree totally about flights abroad. The UK's service is good but far too fragmented.
Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
Originally Posted by DFC
Why do you have a problem with IFPS handling your IFR flight OCAS in the UK? As I said previously, the system wil not present you with any problems provided that the flight plan is correctly compiled. I can confirm that from experience. Yes in the past (5+ years ago), there were some issues and I can remember us having problems with flights that were OCAS, crossers or leavers where the IFPS/CFMU were insisting on a route within the SRS.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
bookworm,
the segment you refer, MID DCT CPT is unavailable not due to Airway MEA (theres no route between the two points), but because the UK says you cannot plan it on an IFR FPL.
RAD Appendix 4 DCTMIDCPT Min altitude 000 Max altitude 999 Available NO.
rgds
the segment you refer, MID DCT CPT is unavailable not due to Airway MEA (theres no route between the two points), but because the UK says you cannot plan it on an IFR FPL.
RAD Appendix 4 DCTMIDCPT Min altitude 000 Max altitude 999 Available NO.
rgds
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
If you are routing from Goodwood via CPT on an IFR plan OCAS. Why would you want to route via MID?
To me that route takes you closer to the LTMA lower base levels and on the MID-CPT leg takes you closer to Farnborough (more chance of a conflict with departing/arriving traffic and thus vectors or restrictions).
I would probably route out towards the Popham Area to pass south of Lasham and then direct to CPT. That route enables height to be gained sooner because of the higher base levels.
However if you really want to go via MID then by defining the position as a radial and bearing from GWC eg GWC030012 (I have not checked this is actually MID) will get round the computer checking the MID CPT leg against the SRS. You can use the same system to define places like SWB which are not in the system.
Regards,
DFC
To me that route takes you closer to the LTMA lower base levels and on the MID-CPT leg takes you closer to Farnborough (more chance of a conflict with departing/arriving traffic and thus vectors or restrictions).
I would probably route out towards the Popham Area to pass south of Lasham and then direct to CPT. That route enables height to be gained sooner because of the higher base levels.
However if you really want to go via MID then by defining the position as a radial and bearing from GWC eg GWC030012 (I have not checked this is actually MID) will get round the computer checking the MID CPT leg against the SRS. You can use the same system to define places like SWB which are not in the system.
Regards,
DFC
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
A while ago somebody suggested that a clever use of "DCT" solves a lot of CFMU routing problems.
The poster did not give details but I wonder if this is how it's done. Let's say you have a straight airway which runs from X to Y to Z, and the routes X-Y and Y-Z are ruled out in the SRD, then
X DCT Z
might work - if Y happens to lie on or close to a straight line between X and Z.
DFC's suggestion is similar; defining Y as a waypoint off some VOR (say "V") and using
X DCT V DCT Z
might work with the advantage that V can be off the X-Z track.
So an IFR FP made up of DCTs between waypoints defined as VORrrrddd is not checked by CFMU?
The real question is whether one is going to get ATC routing on the actual flight, if the SRD rules it out. My experience, far from extensive in this area, is that ATC give you whatever DCT routing they feel like, so long as they can maintain separation.
The poster did not give details but I wonder if this is how it's done. Let's say you have a straight airway which runs from X to Y to Z, and the routes X-Y and Y-Z are ruled out in the SRD, then
X DCT Z
might work - if Y happens to lie on or close to a straight line between X and Z.
DFC's suggestion is similar; defining Y as a waypoint off some VOR (say "V") and using
X DCT V DCT Z
might work with the advantage that V can be off the X-Z track.
So an IFR FP made up of DCTs between waypoints defined as VORrrrddd is not checked by CFMU?
The real question is whether one is going to get ATC routing on the actual flight, if the SRD rules it out. My experience, far from extensive in this area, is that ATC give you whatever DCT routing they feel like, so long as they can maintain separation.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
If you are going to fly on the airways then unless you have spoken to the appropriate ACC / the Help desk, you have to stick to the RAD / SRS.
While you may fool the computer into processing your plan, the Sector(s) or ACCs affected may not be happy at all and could file an MOR. You could by fooling the computer for example end up departing without a CTOT when one was required. O you could end up being (not the first by a long shot) turned back at the FIR boundary.
Thus within the airways, fooling the computer into accepting your plan can result in;
a) No problem, ATC accomodate your unusual request.
b) ATC simply re-route you via the correct route and that is that
c) ATC report you for failing to comply with the requirements for operating IFR in controlled airspace.
No one can tell what will happen exactly but added to the above, how do you plan your fuel, diversions, weather and notam briefings if are not sure where you will end up?
There can be a big difference between the standard route and one you would like to fly eg entering the UK via Drake might suit you butit is against the SRS in general and you could be diverted by French ATC east of the Paris TMA to enter the UK via Traca. Quite a big diversion in a light single aircraft.
Far better to file standard routes and ask for short-cuts enroute.
Of course in France for example one can go VFR if VMC at the lower levels can be maintained and go as direct as one likes.
If I was flying from say Exeter to Lille, I would not follw the SRS unless I had to. Far better to get VMC on top and go more direct under VFR and if necessary back to IFR for the descent and landing. Making sure that the IFR/VFR and VFR/IFR change points are specified in the FPL.
Regards,
DFC
While you may fool the computer into processing your plan, the Sector(s) or ACCs affected may not be happy at all and could file an MOR. You could by fooling the computer for example end up departing without a CTOT when one was required. O you could end up being (not the first by a long shot) turned back at the FIR boundary.
Thus within the airways, fooling the computer into accepting your plan can result in;
a) No problem, ATC accomodate your unusual request.
b) ATC simply re-route you via the correct route and that is that
c) ATC report you for failing to comply with the requirements for operating IFR in controlled airspace.
No one can tell what will happen exactly but added to the above, how do you plan your fuel, diversions, weather and notam briefings if are not sure where you will end up?
There can be a big difference between the standard route and one you would like to fly eg entering the UK via Drake might suit you butit is against the SRS in general and you could be diverted by French ATC east of the Paris TMA to enter the UK via Traca. Quite a big diversion in a light single aircraft.
Far better to file standard routes and ask for short-cuts enroute.
Of course in France for example one can go VFR if VMC at the lower levels can be maintained and go as direct as one likes.
If I was flying from say Exeter to Lille, I would not follw the SRS unless I had to. Far better to get VMC on top and go more direct under VFR and if necessary back to IFR for the descent and landing. Making sure that the IFR/VFR and VFR/IFR change points are specified in the FPL.
Regards,
DFC
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
In the absence of other contributors comming up with a way to ensure that IFPS does not check an IFR out side controlled airspace within the UK flight plan when submitted is.........
The original question asked;
EGHR MID CPT BZ SWB TNT EGSY
Flight Plan route DCT MID DCT CPT DCT BZ DCT SWB DCT TNT DCT brings up a host of errors.
Put in DCT MID DCT CPT DCT BZ DCT SWB DCT TNT GAT DCT and there will be no errors because the route up to TNT is not checked.
This is not a recomendation to use any form of flight plan just pointing out something known to every professional in the business who files flight plans that work. End of Disclaimer.
If you were joining airways at TNT then this would also work and if White Hart was entering it into the HCS he would put in EGHR./.TNT. Isn't that correct eh?
Regards,
DFC
The original question asked;
EGHR MID CPT BZ SWB TNT EGSY
Flight Plan route DCT MID DCT CPT DCT BZ DCT SWB DCT TNT DCT brings up a host of errors.
Put in DCT MID DCT CPT DCT BZ DCT SWB DCT TNT GAT DCT and there will be no errors because the route up to TNT is not checked.
This is not a recomendation to use any form of flight plan just pointing out something known to every professional in the business who files flight plans that work. End of Disclaimer.
If you were joining airways at TNT then this would also work and if White Hart was entering it into the HCS he would put in EGHR./.TNT. Isn't that correct eh?
Regards,
DFC
