Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
IO540;
If you wish to remain outside CAS then I suggest you include all en-route units you are likely to work as additional addressees. This has to be done by you; Brussels will NOT do it on your behalf.
If you wish to remain outside CAS then I suggest you include all en-route units you are likely to work as additional addressees. This has to be done by you; Brussels will NOT do it on your behalf.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
Originally Posted by chevvron
IO540;
If you wish to remain outside CAS then I suggest you include all en-route units you are likely to work as additional addressees.
If you wish to remain outside CAS then I suggest you include all en-route units you are likely to work as additional addressees.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
Interesting.
As "everybody" knows, a lot of 2000kg+ pilots choose to fly VFR to avoid the charges.
The drawbacks of this include:
1) No airways-style enroute clearance, need to sit up and beg for a transit at each piece of CAS (generally, less of a problem abroad than in the UK)
2) Cannot depart if cloudbase is below the minimum VFR departure figure for the airfield (if it's an ATC airfield)
3) The flight plan is addressed only to departure, destination and possibly some regional FIS units, and doesn't get looked at unless the aircraft vanishes.
4) In any airspace where night=IFR, no night flight
5) Illegal if in IMC at any time (unenforceable)
6) Cannot land if an instrument approach is obviously required to get in.
On the last one, an IR (or IMCR if UK) pilot arriving VFR can then ask for an instrument approach, with the IFR clearance which that implies. I gather from pilots who do this that this isn't a problem in practice - any feedback on this? Obviously this is fine in the UK; it's normal practice.
As "everybody" knows, a lot of 2000kg+ pilots choose to fly VFR to avoid the charges.
The drawbacks of this include:
1) No airways-style enroute clearance, need to sit up and beg for a transit at each piece of CAS (generally, less of a problem abroad than in the UK)
2) Cannot depart if cloudbase is below the minimum VFR departure figure for the airfield (if it's an ATC airfield)
3) The flight plan is addressed only to departure, destination and possibly some regional FIS units, and doesn't get looked at unless the aircraft vanishes.
4) In any airspace where night=IFR, no night flight
5) Illegal if in IMC at any time (unenforceable)
6) Cannot land if an instrument approach is obviously required to get in.
On the last one, an IR (or IMCR if UK) pilot arriving VFR can then ask for an instrument approach, with the IFR clearance which that implies. I gather from pilots who do this that this isn't a problem in practice - any feedback on this? Obviously this is fine in the UK; it's normal practice.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
IO540
All of your points above are true with the exception of (6). Arriving from the open FIR and flying an instrument approach does not "appear" to trigger the generation of an enroute nvoice for an otherwise anonymous pseudo-VFR flight in a 2t+, a least, not in my experience.
Apart from the intellectual challenge, I am curious as to why a self-confessed non-IR sub-2T flyer is so interested in this
All of your points above are true with the exception of (6). Arriving from the open FIR and flying an instrument approach does not "appear" to trigger the generation of an enroute nvoice for an otherwise anonymous pseudo-VFR flight in a 2t+, a least, not in my experience.
Apart from the intellectual challenge, I am curious as to why a self-confessed non-IR sub-2T flyer is so interested in this
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
What does that mean Chevvron?
Are you suggesting that there is a LARS Unit that cares is some open-FIR VFR/IFR flightplan copies it in? If so, I don't think anybody has said otherwise, just that the exercise has no value over a freecall or a prenote from another agency.
Or are you talking about LARS units raising paperwork that will cause an aircraft enroute charges with Eurocontrol? If so, then I doubt it very much.
Are you suggesting that there is a LARS Unit that cares is some open-FIR VFR/IFR flightplan copies it in? If so, I don't think anybody has said otherwise, just that the exercise has no value over a freecall or a prenote from another agency.
Or are you talking about LARS units raising paperwork that will cause an aircraft enroute charges with Eurocontrol? If so, then I doubt it very much.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
2D
Partly intellectual challenge, and partly because I know pilots outside Europe who wish to fly here and ask me questions like this. As you know I am under 2T. I will have the IR done next month.
However, having done some long flights into far Europe, it's obvious that even an IR pilot will choose to fly VFR sometimes. Just file a FP (homebriefing.com), jump in the plane and go. And in the UK, formal IFR is hardly worth the bother, even if one spends the whole flight sitting in IMC. With non-mandatory transponders, TCAS is close to worthless.
All the related cr*p (filling in 5 different forms in Greece, having to pay the bowser man in cash, for example) is just the same, VFR or IFR...
Partly intellectual challenge, and partly because I know pilots outside Europe who wish to fly here and ask me questions like this. As you know I am under 2T. I will have the IR done next month.
However, having done some long flights into far Europe, it's obvious that even an IR pilot will choose to fly VFR sometimes. Just file a FP (homebriefing.com), jump in the plane and go. And in the UK, formal IFR is hardly worth the bother, even if one spends the whole flight sitting in IMC. With non-mandatory transponders, TCAS is close to worthless.
All the related cr*p (filling in 5 different forms in Greece, having to pay the bowser man in cash, for example) is just the same, VFR or IFR...
Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
LARS units, as has been said before, have no interest in en-route charging.
The unit I'm talking about has such a large turnover of traffic that it often refuses prenotes/handovers due controller workload, but having FPL details available reduces workload when the pilot calls. Sometimes, even people who don't file FPL's phone beforehand and pass brief details (to an assistant) which is also very useful.
Additionally this unit is often asked to open/close FPL's, which it does workload permitting; in these circumstances it's also useful to have a copy of the original FPL.
What they can't do 'cos they're so busy is action AFIL's (see separate thread in ATC section)
The unit I'm talking about has such a large turnover of traffic that it often refuses prenotes/handovers due controller workload, but having FPL details available reduces workload when the pilot calls. Sometimes, even people who don't file FPL's phone beforehand and pass brief details (to an assistant) which is also very useful.
Additionally this unit is often asked to open/close FPL's, which it does workload permitting; in these circumstances it's also useful to have a copy of the original FPL.
What they can't do 'cos they're so busy is action AFIL's (see separate thread in ATC section)
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
So who is this unit, Brize? Will the o/c be delighted if we all start copying his AFTN on flights that might pass close to the Brize CTR and/or might request a service?
BTW: FPLs are not "closed" in the UK.
BTW: FPLs are not "closed" in the UK.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
I wrote to Austrocontrol (the excellent www-based flight plan filing service homebriefing.com) and their reply was:
"Our homebriefing system is addressing all ifr flightplans to the two addresses "EBBDZMFP" as well as "LFPYZMFP" according to IFPS regulations for ifr flights. VFR flights departing in the UK are to be addressed to the ARO of the departure aerodrome. The ARO of the departure ad is reponsibe to address the fpl to all addresses of the flt concerned."
It's an "interesting" way of handling VFR flight plans
"Our homebriefing system is addressing all ifr flightplans to the two addresses "EBBDZMFP" as well as "LFPYZMFP" according to IFPS regulations for ifr flights. VFR flights departing in the UK are to be addressed to the ARO of the departure aerodrome. The ARO of the departure ad is reponsibe to address the fpl to all addresses of the flt concerned."
It's an "interesting" way of handling VFR flight plans
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
How does the VFR departure airfield know that it is supposed to re-address the FP to the destination?
If one faxes an FP to the departure a/f then it's obvious, because the fax obviously didn't come via the AFTN. So, faxing an FP to Heathrow works OK. Except that they (like every other similar service to date) don't guarantee to handle FPs for flights wholly outside the UK, whereas Austrocontrol does.
If one faxes an FP to the departure a/f then it's obvious, because the fax obviously didn't come via the AFTN. So, faxing an FP to Heathrow works OK. Except that they (like every other similar service to date) don't guarantee to handle FPs for flights wholly outside the UK, whereas Austrocontrol does.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
In what sense is Austrocontrol handling UK VFR flights, if it deals with their FPLs in the way you describe? It is merely shifting the problem to the Aerodrome of Departure, by the sound of things.
Its handling of IFR flights outside controlled airspace is similarly out of keeping with normal practice in the UK - as described above. The implication is that any IFR flightplan you file outside controlled airspace in the UK will still have to go needlessly through the IFPU Flightplan checker. In this case, the "fault" is clearly the UK's for having an approach to IFR flight that is out of keeping with much of the rest of the planet.
Its handling of IFR flights outside controlled airspace is similarly out of keeping with normal practice in the UK - as described above. The implication is that any IFR flightplan you file outside controlled airspace in the UK will still have to go needlessly through the IFPU Flightplan checker. In this case, the "fault" is clearly the UK's for having an approach to IFR flight that is out of keeping with much of the rest of the planet.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
I've been out of FPL addressing for over 10 yrs but I suggest Austrocontrol is doing things correctly. ALL IFR FPLs should be sent only to the IFPS addresses - Haren and Bretigny (within the IFPS boundaries); it's just in the UK for flights outside of CAS, for expediency, they have, I suspect, become treated as VFR FPLs and sent to all appropriate addresses. Austrocontrol sending a VFR FPL to the departure ARO is fair do's I reckon. They are not going to know all the addresses for VFR UK FPLs.
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
vintage ATCO
The reason I raised this VFR FP addressing query is that Austrocontrol told me last year that VFR flight plan addressing is done using a database which cross-references airports with FP addresses to which the FP is meant to go to.
(Actually they didn't say this in so many words because their English is limited, but that was the equivalent)
I did a VFR flight from one Spanish airport X to another Y. X was a little one, with the only activity being in the bar. Y was a big one. FPs for an X departure were meant to be addressed to Z (a nearby big one) but Austrocontrol's database didn't have this piece of info, and the FP had never arrived at Z.
This is just a little useless piece of info, but it illustrates how a VFR FP can vanish. Presumably conventional ATC units have an addressing directory, rather than a database, but the problem is the same.
As regards IFR FPs, I don't see why Austrocontrol should do things differently for "within UK" FPs, just because we can fly IFR in Class G, etc.
Incidentally, I have just got info from a friend in a far corner of Europe, whose national ATS does almost exactly what the UK does (FPs are mandatory, but it treats little local IFR FPs as VFR, for addressing purposes).
The reason I raised this VFR FP addressing query is that Austrocontrol told me last year that VFR flight plan addressing is done using a database which cross-references airports with FP addresses to which the FP is meant to go to.
(Actually they didn't say this in so many words because their English is limited, but that was the equivalent)
I did a VFR flight from one Spanish airport X to another Y. X was a little one, with the only activity being in the bar. Y was a big one. FPs for an X departure were meant to be addressed to Z (a nearby big one) but Austrocontrol's database didn't have this piece of info, and the FP had never arrived at Z.
This is just a little useless piece of info, but it illustrates how a VFR FP can vanish. Presumably conventional ATC units have an addressing directory, rather than a database, but the problem is the same.
As regards IFR FPs, I don't see why Austrocontrol should do things differently for "within UK" FPs, just because we can fly IFR in Class G, etc.
Incidentally, I have just got info from a friend in a far corner of Europe, whose national ATS does almost exactly what the UK does (FPs are mandatory, but it treats little local IFR FPs as VFR, for addressing purposes).
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
Hmmm, I would doubt there is any form of 'database' for VFR addresses as it is so variable.
Many years ago, in a former life, I wrote the FPL addressing book for Luton. I then ended up in touch with the NATS person doing this at Heathrow. Eventually a doc appeared CAP550 which I contributed to in a small way. IFR FPLs were easy (even pre IFPS), VFR FPLs more tricky because of the variables.
CAP550 is no longer published in paper form but it is available on the NATS intranet.
Personally, I wouldn't trust a third party country/organisation filing a VFR FPL in another country. You really need the AIP from that country. Unless, of course, I am doing them a complete disservice and someone has genuinely compiled such a database. I would love to know they have but keeping it updated must be a nightmare!
Many years ago, in a former life, I wrote the FPL addressing book for Luton. I then ended up in touch with the NATS person doing this at Heathrow. Eventually a doc appeared CAP550 which I contributed to in a small way. IFR FPLs were easy (even pre IFPS), VFR FPLs more tricky because of the variables.
CAP550 is no longer published in paper form but it is available on the NATS intranet.
Personally, I wouldn't trust a third party country/organisation filing a VFR FPL in another country. You really need the AIP from that country. Unless, of course, I am doing them a complete disservice and someone has genuinely compiled such a database. I would love to know they have but keeping it updated must be a nightmare!
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Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
Vintage ATCO,
Ring up the route charges office AT LTCC or LACC wherever it is now and ask them. You could also ask someone who has been doing the FIR for some years about the SI sent out reminding all FIR ATSAs to ensure that the flight rules were recorded correctly whenever it was provided by a flight (no requirement to tell the FIR what rules your are operating under). There was an operator some years back that queried bills for VFR flights and successfully argued that the FIR controller (as it was at the time) incorrectly recorded the flight rules on the strip.
As far as I am aware all the strips are collected and sent to the Route Charges office at the end of each day.
I never said that LARS units processed route charges for services provided. I said that it was ironic that they did not.
------
Flight plan addressing:
IFR flight plans are only addressed to IFPS. If anyone can find a reference that says otherwise then please shout.
Now for addressing of VFR flights or IFR flights in the pre-IFPS days;
Flight from A to B to C and back to A. Thus 3 flights and 3 flight plans.
A-B is transmitted by A to everyone who should get it (dep, dest, enroute FIR etc).
B-C is transmitted to B who is responsible for addressing the plan as required.
C-A is transmitted to C who is responsible for addressing the plan as required.
Looking at the C to A flight, C will address the plan to dep, dest and enroute. Thus A will get another copy from C because it is the destination.
If the C to A flight diverts into B, it must on arrival tell B that it had a flight plan filed and that the original destination was A so that B can send an arrival message to B so that overdue action will not be started.
For certain airfields within an FIR, a central office can handle the reception, addressing and distribution of flight plans. eg Heathrow for it's designated area.
What Austro control are doing with IFR flights is totally correct even if the flight is within the UK and outside controlled airspace. Just because the flight is outside controlled airspace does not mean that a flight plan can be filed ignoring the national regulations or flow or other restrictions that may be in place.
Also Austro control are treating the VFR FPLs IO540 sends them correctly i.e. when the dep is not in their area of responsibility, they follow ICAO rules and send one copy of the flight plan to the ARO at the DEP airfield. In effect, the service they provide is that you can file your VFR FPL from Bristol to Cardiff over the internet and they give the FPL to Bristol just like you could yourself (if you were there).
As vintage ATCO says, the people to talk to about flight plan addressing are those that work at Heathrow. For many flights, they have what are called collective addresses (some are published in the reference I gave from the UK AIP). These ensure that say a VFR flight plan from UK to Italy goes to all the required addresses enroute by simply putting in 1 address.
Those people at Heathrow can tell you where to address a flight plan for a flight from Heathrow to Singapore. Ask them about the address for the return flight and they will simply say - we sent it to Singapore and it is up to them to address it.
That is it when it comes to flight plans.
For a better idea of how professionals integrate aircraft operations, IFPS, CFMU, Flight PLans etc, as for a visit to BA operations!
Regards,
DFC
Ring up the route charges office AT LTCC or LACC wherever it is now and ask them. You could also ask someone who has been doing the FIR for some years about the SI sent out reminding all FIR ATSAs to ensure that the flight rules were recorded correctly whenever it was provided by a flight (no requirement to tell the FIR what rules your are operating under). There was an operator some years back that queried bills for VFR flights and successfully argued that the FIR controller (as it was at the time) incorrectly recorded the flight rules on the strip.
As far as I am aware all the strips are collected and sent to the Route Charges office at the end of each day.
I never said that LARS units processed route charges for services provided. I said that it was ironic that they did not.
------
Flight plan addressing:
IFR flight plans are only addressed to IFPS. If anyone can find a reference that says otherwise then please shout.
Now for addressing of VFR flights or IFR flights in the pre-IFPS days;
Flight from A to B to C and back to A. Thus 3 flights and 3 flight plans.
A-B is transmitted by A to everyone who should get it (dep, dest, enroute FIR etc).
B-C is transmitted to B who is responsible for addressing the plan as required.
C-A is transmitted to C who is responsible for addressing the plan as required.
Looking at the C to A flight, C will address the plan to dep, dest and enroute. Thus A will get another copy from C because it is the destination.
If the C to A flight diverts into B, it must on arrival tell B that it had a flight plan filed and that the original destination was A so that B can send an arrival message to B so that overdue action will not be started.
For certain airfields within an FIR, a central office can handle the reception, addressing and distribution of flight plans. eg Heathrow for it's designated area.
What Austro control are doing with IFR flights is totally correct even if the flight is within the UK and outside controlled airspace. Just because the flight is outside controlled airspace does not mean that a flight plan can be filed ignoring the national regulations or flow or other restrictions that may be in place.
Also Austro control are treating the VFR FPLs IO540 sends them correctly i.e. when the dep is not in their area of responsibility, they follow ICAO rules and send one copy of the flight plan to the ARO at the DEP airfield. In effect, the service they provide is that you can file your VFR FPL from Bristol to Cardiff over the internet and they give the FPL to Bristol just like you could yourself (if you were there).
As vintage ATCO says, the people to talk to about flight plan addressing are those that work at Heathrow. For many flights, they have what are called collective addresses (some are published in the reference I gave from the UK AIP). These ensure that say a VFR flight plan from UK to Italy goes to all the required addresses enroute by simply putting in 1 address.
Those people at Heathrow can tell you where to address a flight plan for a flight from Heathrow to Singapore. Ask them about the address for the return flight and they will simply say - we sent it to Singapore and it is up to them to address it.
That is it when it comes to flight plans.
For a better idea of how professionals integrate aircraft operations, IFPS, CFMU, Flight PLans etc, as for a visit to BA operations!
Regards,
DFC
Last edited by DFC; 3rd Jan 2006 at 22:44.