What the ####s happening at Oban?
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http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/conten...0038?s=906&a=0
Gives an update on what is happening. Paul is still supplying fuel, but thats about it....
Council contact details at base of page.
Gives an update on what is happening. Paul is still supplying fuel, but thats about it....
Council contact details at base of page.
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Isn't this a good thing?
Forgive me for being stupid, but having read the council article it seems like good news. It looks as though they or someone are investing in the airfield. Surely this is improvement? Earlier I feared that the airfield would be sold for the developers to have their way, but this does not seem to be the case. Maybe ppruners can enlighten me.
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The problem isn't the improvements, but what happens when they are completed. Will we see an HIAL type approach, where GA is not welcome and the airports are only open monday-Friday 9-5?
AOSL are the genius' who masterminded Sheffield. I think we all remember what happened there.... AOSL used to be called Humberside Aviation Services Limited.
The upgrades are a good thing, but not at the expense of losing Oban to the people who use it most.
AOSL are the genius' who masterminded Sheffield. I think we all remember what happened there.... AOSL used to be called Humberside Aviation Services Limited.
The upgrades are a good thing, but not at the expense of losing Oban to the people who use it most.
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Assuming someone is appointed to the post, how much of a free rein will they be given or will they purely be the aviation mouthpiece of the Council.
I know someone who has applied and has a fair understanding of the needs of the GA community.
Having seen the advertisement, it would appear that obtaining an Aerodrome License is not a bad move and they have seemingly good intentions, i.e. having the ability to operate some limited services to some of the outer islands.
Most posters seem to have this vision of a hidden agenda, or have I misunderstood their concerns?
I know someone who has applied and has a fair understanding of the needs of the GA community.
Having seen the advertisement, it would appear that obtaining an Aerodrome License is not a bad move and they have seemingly good intentions, i.e. having the ability to operate some limited services to some of the outer islands.
Most posters seem to have this vision of a hidden agenda, or have I misunderstood their concerns?
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Two things:
1. The Council has only approved funding the running costs of the airport for the first year. When it gave that approval it did so on the specific condition that HIAL would take over the running of the airport (and therefore the financial risk) from the second year.
2. There are massive problems with getting the airfield licensed - particularly for any sort of commercial operations - because of the surrounding terrain. It's just possible the CAA might approve it as a VFR-only Code 1 (suitable for Islanders). But the consultants advising the council are still telling them that they can have Jetstreams etc operating schedules to Edinburgh, Glasgow and beyond. It's cloud-cuckoo land, funded by the taxpayer. There's a real danger that when the council realises what a hole it's dug for itself it'll take the easy financial option and sell the site off for housing development.
NS
1. The Council has only approved funding the running costs of the airport for the first year. When it gave that approval it did so on the specific condition that HIAL would take over the running of the airport (and therefore the financial risk) from the second year.
2. There are massive problems with getting the airfield licensed - particularly for any sort of commercial operations - because of the surrounding terrain. It's just possible the CAA might approve it as a VFR-only Code 1 (suitable for Islanders). But the consultants advising the council are still telling them that they can have Jetstreams etc operating schedules to Edinburgh, Glasgow and beyond. It's cloud-cuckoo land, funded by the taxpayer. There's a real danger that when the council realises what a hole it's dug for itself it'll take the easy financial option and sell the site off for housing development.
NS
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Housing development is probably one of the least likely options, given that the area has a glut of housing and a decreasing population.
Gravel extraction would be a more probable alternative.
Southerly IFR approaches are highly unlikely at Oban thanks to the terrain to the North, but cloud-break manoeuvres don't seem impractical to me, albeit with reasonably high minima.
We don't know what the licensed LDA will be so far, but I see no reason why a Jetstream operation into Oban would be impractical. Citations regularly used the place in its unlicensed state.
2D
Gravel extraction would be a more probable alternative.
Southerly IFR approaches are highly unlikely at Oban thanks to the terrain to the North, but cloud-break manoeuvres don't seem impractical to me, albeit with reasonably high minima.
We don't know what the licensed LDA will be so far, but I see no reason why a Jetstream operation into Oban would be impractical. Citations regularly used the place in its unlicensed state.
2D
Better red than ...
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The Citations were probably private. The J41 Jetstreams would be revenue earning (I recall the J41 is the most expensive commercial aircraft to operate per load/hour or similiar. Whats wrong with an Islander for the run to Coll/ Collansay?)
NB is it relevent that the previous poster is at 999 posts??
NB is it relevent that the previous poster is at 999 posts??
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Any sort of scheduled service into Oban would need to be IFR, but there is no way on earth you could get a procedure in place given the local topography. Put it this way, would you want to fly it........
The only sensible solution to the desire of having a service between Oban, Coll, Colonsay and Tiree would be to use an Islander, the even dafter thing is that one of the local Islander operators has a dispensation to operate from unlicenced fields, so why the council don't just let them try the route first before spending the vast sums of money that will be required to licence all the strips?
It's a complete farce and a total waste of tax payers money, but councils never seem to bothered about that do they.....
The only sensible solution to the desire of having a service between Oban, Coll, Colonsay and Tiree would be to use an Islander, the even dafter thing is that one of the local Islander operators has a dispensation to operate from unlicenced fields, so why the council don't just let them try the route first before spending the vast sums of money that will be required to licence all the strips?
It's a complete farce and a total waste of tax payers money, but councils never seem to bothered about that do they.....
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Originally Posted by 2Donkeys
Housing development is probably one of the least likely options, given that the area has a glut of housing and a decreasing population. Gravel extraction would be a more probable alternative.
Originally Posted by 2Donkeys
Southerly IFR approaches are highly unlikely at Oban thanks to the terrain to the North, but cloud-break manoeuvres don't seem impractical to me
Originally Posted by 2Donkeys
I see no reason why a Jetstream operation into Oban would be impractical. Citations regularly used the place in its unlicensed state
As SAS says, it's sad that a perfectly achievable and sustainable air service has been rejected by the council because it wants to be up with the big boys. Shetland Council manages to run daily scheduled services to four unlicensed strips, on a CAA exemption, at a fraction of the cost proposed for the Oban operation.
NS
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Oban Cloud-Break
I can't see even a cloud-break proceedure based on an the airfield NDB ever being approved at Oban. There is an unofficial let-down, used by inbounds in IMC - at BRUCE, followed by a VFR transit to Oban. Much less to hit at BRUCE with GOW & TIR VORs + radar from Scottish 127.275. Never seen anything like that approved in the UK though!
Neutron
Neutron
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Originally Posted by boomerangben
Stornoway has a cloud break procedure which approved and plated.
1. It's one of nine approved IAPs for that airfield, and all 8 others have lower minima for Cat B aircraft and above. Oban would only have that one procedure.
2. The Stornoway procedure is an aerodrome approach procedure, with a MAPt only half a mile short of the field. Because of the high ground N of Oban a cloudbreak procedure there would probably have to be to a new NDB on Lismore or somewhere away from the airfield, followed by a lengthy visual transit to the field
3. Stornoway procedure uses VOR which has a smaller obstacle assessment area so lower minima. Oban's would be NDB
4. The terrain round Oban's much less forgiving than Stornoway. 25nm MSA at EGPO is 2300 (cf Oban 4700); 10nm MSA is 3700 (cf Oban 5500).
NS
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So in reality a daily IFR service to/from Oban would be an accident waiting to happen without an enormous expenditure or leap forward in technology.
At one point they were hoping to get 737's in there.........
At one point they were hoping to get 737's in there.........
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As a non IFR trained PPL, what is the real limiting factor here, the accuracy of ground based radio navigation aids close to undulating terrain, or aircraft performance?
This was just really picking up on the previous posters comment that a " leap forward in technology" would be required - did you mean the navaids or the aircraft? We can assume the later stays constant (unless a radical new discovery in physics/wing design allows aircraft to fly much slower). So, if GPS is used for primary navigation would this not allow for pin-point let downs over the Firth or Lorn or Loch Linnee? Would this then just require some sort of NDB approach to the airfield from this let down point over the water? Assuming this is all ok, is the problem (considering an approach from the south) that a missed approach cannot incorporate an immediate climbing left turn (to avoid the mountain at the end of the runway). Also I realise that the ground to the south of the airfield is quite hilly but can't the approach plate just emphasise the risks of deviating from the 3 , 4 or whatever is required degree of glideslope. Surely some of these airports in Nepal and similar have unusual Instrument procedures like this?
Before you shoot me down, I apologise if some of my points sound dumb - as I said at the start I have no formal IFR training or knowledge - just a can-do outlook. I have also flown into Oban a number of times, VFR in a PA28.
Finally, how long does a 737 need? It seemed a bit of a squeeze getting into Rome Ciampino in my Easyjet 737 flight the other day - a stamp on the brakes affair.
This was just really picking up on the previous posters comment that a " leap forward in technology" would be required - did you mean the navaids or the aircraft? We can assume the later stays constant (unless a radical new discovery in physics/wing design allows aircraft to fly much slower). So, if GPS is used for primary navigation would this not allow for pin-point let downs over the Firth or Lorn or Loch Linnee? Would this then just require some sort of NDB approach to the airfield from this let down point over the water? Assuming this is all ok, is the problem (considering an approach from the south) that a missed approach cannot incorporate an immediate climbing left turn (to avoid the mountain at the end of the runway). Also I realise that the ground to the south of the airfield is quite hilly but can't the approach plate just emphasise the risks of deviating from the 3 , 4 or whatever is required degree of glideslope. Surely some of these airports in Nepal and similar have unusual Instrument procedures like this?
Before you shoot me down, I apologise if some of my points sound dumb - as I said at the start I have no formal IFR training or knowledge - just a can-do outlook. I have also flown into Oban a number of times, VFR in a PA28.
Finally, how long does a 737 need? It seemed a bit of a squeeze getting into Rome Ciampino in my Easyjet 737 flight the other day - a stamp on the brakes affair.
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Well, I thank you all for the responses generated since my post.
I appreciate the terrain issues etc. etc. however, there seems to be a lot of negativity generally ref: the Council's plans.
Many airport's in the U.K. have been/still are operated by Councils or have them still as shareholders; i.e. Manchester - Birmingham and on a smaller scale, Gloucester. Airports can be good investments. Additionally, aerodrome operators have to look at the wider picture; what good can an airport be in terms of its support for the the local populace and businesses.
I must confess to never having been to Oban and therefore do not pretend to understand the geographical features, the local infrastructure nor, above all, the politics.
One poster mentioned Nepal - how about Bhutan! There are areas in the world where high ground, obstacles, poor wx and safety criteria can mix.
GPS approaches will get accepted one day; EVS is already here - if you can afford it; steeper ILS apps can be licensed etc.
A real shame Cessna Caravan I's can't be used for commercial ops in this country. Islanders, unless you buy a shiny turbine one are getting a bit long in the tooth.
Maybe an acceptable operation that mixes in with everyone's aspirations can be devised.
GK
737's.....some aspirations need lowering
I appreciate the terrain issues etc. etc. however, there seems to be a lot of negativity generally ref: the Council's plans.
Many airport's in the U.K. have been/still are operated by Councils or have them still as shareholders; i.e. Manchester - Birmingham and on a smaller scale, Gloucester. Airports can be good investments. Additionally, aerodrome operators have to look at the wider picture; what good can an airport be in terms of its support for the the local populace and businesses.
I must confess to never having been to Oban and therefore do not pretend to understand the geographical features, the local infrastructure nor, above all, the politics.
One poster mentioned Nepal - how about Bhutan! There are areas in the world where high ground, obstacles, poor wx and safety criteria can mix.
GPS approaches will get accepted one day; EVS is already here - if you can afford it; steeper ILS apps can be licensed etc.
A real shame Cessna Caravan I's can't be used for commercial ops in this country. Islanders, unless you buy a shiny turbine one are getting a bit long in the tooth.
Maybe an acceptable operation that mixes in with everyone's aspirations can be devised.
GK
737's.....some aspirations need lowering
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Originally Posted by clearfinalsno1
if GPS is used for primary navigation would this not allow for pin-point let downs over the Firth
NS
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There are ways to make an approach feasible, but there are other issues such as what happens in the event of an emergency.
As NS mentions the accident rates in Nepal and other areas are frightening and totally unacceptable, one thing we must never do is compromise safe practices to satisy someone's whim. Something thankfully the CAA are highly unlikely to allow.
As NS mentions the accident rates in Nepal and other areas are frightening and totally unacceptable, one thing we must never do is compromise safe practices to satisy someone's whim. Something thankfully the CAA are highly unlikely to allow.
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Originally Posted by GK430
A real shame Cessna Caravan I's can't be used for commercial ops in this country
NS
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Originally Posted by neutron
There is an unofficial let-down, used by inbounds in IMC - at BRUCE, followed by a VFR transit to Oban
NS