Shares in aircraft? good idea?
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With regard to large groups, the practical reality of my Mon-Fri bondage, errm, work life is that I perceive no major difference in availability between my current 1/14th and my previous 1/3rd! So I agree with Genghis; a significant number of large group members hardly fly!!
Nice things about big groups: Social. Well organised. Strong personalities don't dominate. Well maintained aircraft. Few or no cash calls. Cheap.
Nice things about small groups: Real sense of aircraft ownership. Much more flexibility for weekends or weeks away.
Just read the inverse for the bad points!
The really really nice thing about large groups is that because of the lower capital outlay and monthlies, you can buy into more than one share to experience different types without breaking the bank
Nice things about big groups: Social. Well organised. Strong personalities don't dominate. Well maintained aircraft. Few or no cash calls. Cheap.
Nice things about small groups: Real sense of aircraft ownership. Much more flexibility for weekends or weeks away.
Just read the inverse for the bad points!
The really really nice thing about large groups is that because of the lower capital outlay and monthlies, you can buy into more than one share to experience different types without breaking the bank
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Could be interested - what sort of type did you have in mind ?
Bulldog? There are a few nice ones for sale at the moment. Never flown one, but it would be good fun.
If anyone is interested would be happy to discuss any suggestions.
Cheers
EA
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“Is there any way to protect yourself from this? I'm thinking of buying a share, but don't want to buy in and a week later the engine to go bang and get a £15,000 bill which I have to fork out 25% of..... “
Avoiding this is not that hard.
1 Find a tame engineer who is knowledgeable on type and who you know. Arrange to take him over to do an inspection. Pay cash and it will not be too expensive.
2 Talk to the other members. I am a penniless enthusiast so this bit is easy for me. Let them know who you are etc but make it clear you are short of cash and will not be able to afford any big bill if it comes too soon after the share purchase. If the group still want you, you are dead safe! I have even had groups who have an easy payment plan if one member gets into financial trouble.
3 Talk to the engineer who is looking after the aircraft. If he says the plane if fine, he will look very silly if it falls apart. I find most will give you a honest answer because otherwise you will push to move the maintenance else ware and word of this will spread and he will lose business.
4 Take to the non-shareholders who fly regularly at the club and know the aircraft and the group. If the thing is about to break and anybody knows about it, they will have got the rumour. Your engineer will then have a good look in the right place.
Lastly, I have to add that I have been in and around group owned aircraft for many years and I have never come across this actually happening.
Rod1
Avoiding this is not that hard.
1 Find a tame engineer who is knowledgeable on type and who you know. Arrange to take him over to do an inspection. Pay cash and it will not be too expensive.
2 Talk to the other members. I am a penniless enthusiast so this bit is easy for me. Let them know who you are etc but make it clear you are short of cash and will not be able to afford any big bill if it comes too soon after the share purchase. If the group still want you, you are dead safe! I have even had groups who have an easy payment plan if one member gets into financial trouble.
3 Talk to the engineer who is looking after the aircraft. If he says the plane if fine, he will look very silly if it falls apart. I find most will give you a honest answer because otherwise you will push to move the maintenance else ware and word of this will spread and he will lose business.
4 Take to the non-shareholders who fly regularly at the club and know the aircraft and the group. If the thing is about to break and anybody knows about it, they will have got the rumour. Your engineer will then have a good look in the right place.
Lastly, I have to add that I have been in and around group owned aircraft for many years and I have never come across this actually happening.
Rod1
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Check out the other group members work habits, I was in a group that all the other guys worked 9-5 monday to friday so being a shift worker I had 5/7ths of the avalability for 1/8th of the cost.
But I did have the good grace not to book the aircraft on the weekend very often.
But I did have the good grace not to book the aircraft on the weekend very often.
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Good point A and C. My job involves lots of weekend working, and most of my time off is midweek. I don't have a share yet, but may be interested in looking for one in the future. I would imagine that my lack of weekend 'need' and midweek availability would probably afford good access in the average large group.
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Wet wet wet
£65 an hour wet expensive?
Even at 40 litres an hour the gas alone is going to cost you fifty quid plus.
That leaves less than £15 an hour for the kitty.
Here is the ultimate group arrangement IMO -
- 4 people.
- Each has it for one full week in 4, (Friday to Thursday). In that way, if you want to fly it and it aint your week you only need to phone 1 person.
Buy the best machine you can afford.
- Have it professionaly maintained regardless of cost. Better to charge each other too much and not groan when something nasty is found on the CofA. You can always have a divvy up ( pigs fed and ready to fly in formation with you....) if the thing cost less than you have budgeted.
I have been in a few syndicates.
Any more than 4 and the members 'lose ownership' of it. You will be more likely to find it dirty or busted. in the case of the latter, nobody will own up.
Vet the members carefully and make sure they can afford to operate it. They will otherwise always winge when you want to spend a bit of money on it - paint, trim, avionics etc.
It helps if they can fly too but dont dismiss new PPL's. Flying aint difficult. Better to recruit somebody sensible with low experience than a high hour know it all.
The worse thing of all is low utilisation because it can make the hourly cost eye-watering. So
- Discuss and agree a minimum utilisation.
I can probably get a copy of a tried and tested syndicate agreement on the above lines.
PM me if you want it.
Oh yes. If you want to fly cheeeeep, buy a motoglider!
Check this out -
Grob 109b, a gorgeous aircraft circa £42k for a pristine example.
12 litres an hour
95kts cruise
28 to 1 glide if you turn the motor off
5 minute simple wing fold ( hangar in the winter at a cheap rate and park outside covered in the summer)
Apart from the share capital expect to budget on £60 pcm and £35 an hour ish.
Best maintenance in Europe on these things down at Airborne composites,Wing Farm Warminster. They could possibly find you one but they are scarce.
Fly one and you will want one - guaranteed!
HP
Even at 40 litres an hour the gas alone is going to cost you fifty quid plus.
That leaves less than £15 an hour for the kitty.
Here is the ultimate group arrangement IMO -
- 4 people.
- Each has it for one full week in 4, (Friday to Thursday). In that way, if you want to fly it and it aint your week you only need to phone 1 person.
Buy the best machine you can afford.
- Have it professionaly maintained regardless of cost. Better to charge each other too much and not groan when something nasty is found on the CofA. You can always have a divvy up ( pigs fed and ready to fly in formation with you....) if the thing cost less than you have budgeted.
I have been in a few syndicates.
Any more than 4 and the members 'lose ownership' of it. You will be more likely to find it dirty or busted. in the case of the latter, nobody will own up.
Vet the members carefully and make sure they can afford to operate it. They will otherwise always winge when you want to spend a bit of money on it - paint, trim, avionics etc.
It helps if they can fly too but dont dismiss new PPL's. Flying aint difficult. Better to recruit somebody sensible with low experience than a high hour know it all.
The worse thing of all is low utilisation because it can make the hourly cost eye-watering. So
- Discuss and agree a minimum utilisation.
I can probably get a copy of a tried and tested syndicate agreement on the above lines.
PM me if you want it.
Oh yes. If you want to fly cheeeeep, buy a motoglider!
Check this out -
Grob 109b, a gorgeous aircraft circa £42k for a pristine example.
12 litres an hour
95kts cruise
28 to 1 glide if you turn the motor off
5 minute simple wing fold ( hangar in the winter at a cheap rate and park outside covered in the summer)
Apart from the share capital expect to budget on £60 pcm and £35 an hour ish.
Best maintenance in Europe on these things down at Airborne composites,Wing Farm Warminster. They could possibly find you one but they are scarce.
Fly one and you will want one - guaranteed!
HP
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Hairyplane,
Your post just goes to show that one mans feast is another mans poison!
Almost all my flying is done on a Saturday. So 1 week in 4 would be absolutely useless to me. My ideal group was one comprising 3 people; one had the aircraft Monday to Friday (he was retired) one on Sundays and me on Saturdays. Under Hairyplane’s rule the aircraft would have done ¼ the hours than it actually managed! As it was we did 150 hours a year, which is optimal for a C of A machine.
“Have it professionally maintained regardless of cost.”
Ouch! My AA5B was costing £3800 a year in maintenance done on the above premise. All my in flight issues have been maintenance / component problems. My new PFA machine is 95% complete. Maintenance budget is £500 a year inc paperwork. I know it inside out and of I think it is not right I will not fly it.
“It helps if they can fly too but dont dismiss new PPL's. Flying aint difficult. Better to recruit somebody sensible with low experience than a high hour know it all.”
Maintenance cost is closely related to how well the aircraft is looked after and if it is flown with mechanical sympathy this will save 1000’s. This sort of person has 100+ (or even 200+) and the right attitude. It is best if people make their mistakes on other people’s aircraft.
“Oh yes. If you want to fly cheeeeep, buy a motoglider!”
Grob 109b, a gorgeous aircraft circa £42k for a pristine example.
12 litres an hour
95kts cruise
28 to 1 glide if you turn the motor off
5 minute simple wing fold
And I guess maintenance at about £3500 per year?
If you want to fly cheap go PFA
MCR-01
17 litres of Mogas
130kts cruise
100 DPS roll rate
De rigs in 10 min (keep it at home with no hangar charges)
Maintenance cost per year £500
Fly one and you will love it.
Rod1,
PS this is not intended as an attack, just an indication of different peoples approach to the same problem!
Your post just goes to show that one mans feast is another mans poison!
Almost all my flying is done on a Saturday. So 1 week in 4 would be absolutely useless to me. My ideal group was one comprising 3 people; one had the aircraft Monday to Friday (he was retired) one on Sundays and me on Saturdays. Under Hairyplane’s rule the aircraft would have done ¼ the hours than it actually managed! As it was we did 150 hours a year, which is optimal for a C of A machine.
“Have it professionally maintained regardless of cost.”
Ouch! My AA5B was costing £3800 a year in maintenance done on the above premise. All my in flight issues have been maintenance / component problems. My new PFA machine is 95% complete. Maintenance budget is £500 a year inc paperwork. I know it inside out and of I think it is not right I will not fly it.
“It helps if they can fly too but dont dismiss new PPL's. Flying aint difficult. Better to recruit somebody sensible with low experience than a high hour know it all.”
Maintenance cost is closely related to how well the aircraft is looked after and if it is flown with mechanical sympathy this will save 1000’s. This sort of person has 100+ (or even 200+) and the right attitude. It is best if people make their mistakes on other people’s aircraft.
“Oh yes. If you want to fly cheeeeep, buy a motoglider!”
Grob 109b, a gorgeous aircraft circa £42k for a pristine example.
12 litres an hour
95kts cruise
28 to 1 glide if you turn the motor off
5 minute simple wing fold
And I guess maintenance at about £3500 per year?
If you want to fly cheap go PFA
MCR-01
17 litres of Mogas
130kts cruise
100 DPS roll rate
De rigs in 10 min (keep it at home with no hangar charges)
Maintenance cost per year £500
Fly one and you will love it.
Rod1,
PS this is not intended as an attack, just an indication of different peoples approach to the same problem!
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To answer your question, yes a good idea. One of the best decisions I made in flying was to form a group.
There's only 3 of us, we all get on, we fly with each other more often than not and we have similar flying aspirations and ambitions. Now we may have got lucky here but we've been in this situation since 1998 and apart from a few unexpectedly expensive bills it's been plain sailing. I guess we all knew what, and who, we wanted to deal with so it was worth the patience and planning to get it right.
The best bit is the availability aspects, popping out for an hour of an evening or a weekend afternoon, just arrange it amongst ourselves, no over zealous booking procedure to worry about - and we agree to keep her for longer trips (we made the Med a couple of years ago!).
We've invested in the aircraft along the way in terms of avionics and although she's an Aerobat (Reims FRA150M) we mollycoddle the engine and do that sort of flying in someone else's machine! So touch wood, we hope to keep her going for a long while yet.
Having said all that I have seen other groups have troubles but we've steered clear of these. Sure, we could do with more money in the kitty but we run it not to make a profit (something I think we're particularly good at!) but we aim to keep the flying as cheap as we realistically can.
Overall I think it's been very beneficial to my flying, I think of it largely as "my aeroplane" (well a third of it) and it keeps the enthusiasm up, time permitting. I don't think I could have done what I've done when I did it just by renting a club aircraft, something I need to bear in mind if I dare start to take it for granted.
There's only 3 of us, we all get on, we fly with each other more often than not and we have similar flying aspirations and ambitions. Now we may have got lucky here but we've been in this situation since 1998 and apart from a few unexpectedly expensive bills it's been plain sailing. I guess we all knew what, and who, we wanted to deal with so it was worth the patience and planning to get it right.
The best bit is the availability aspects, popping out for an hour of an evening or a weekend afternoon, just arrange it amongst ourselves, no over zealous booking procedure to worry about - and we agree to keep her for longer trips (we made the Med a couple of years ago!).
We've invested in the aircraft along the way in terms of avionics and although she's an Aerobat (Reims FRA150M) we mollycoddle the engine and do that sort of flying in someone else's machine! So touch wood, we hope to keep her going for a long while yet.
Having said all that I have seen other groups have troubles but we've steered clear of these. Sure, we could do with more money in the kitty but we run it not to make a profit (something I think we're particularly good at!) but we aim to keep the flying as cheap as we realistically can.
Overall I think it's been very beneficial to my flying, I think of it largely as "my aeroplane" (well a third of it) and it keeps the enthusiasm up, time permitting. I don't think I could have done what I've done when I did it just by renting a club aircraft, something I need to bear in mind if I dare start to take it for granted.
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I've been involved in two groups.
The first was a large group (15 people) flying a nice, but tired
Robin. The availability was the worst point. Working 9-5 I can really only fly at weekends, which seemed to be the same for most people. If you wanted to fly on a saturday, you'd need to book up to two months in advance. Not good if you want to be a little spontaneous. Also, the a/c was a bit 'shabby' , and resembled more of a flying school aircraft. As another posted suggested, being in a group so big, you never really felf like you owned the aircraft, more like to paid a retainer, then rented it. The share price for the a/c was £2,500, with £80 p/m and £65 per hour.
Now, I'm in a group of 3 operating a virtually brand new Tri gear Europa. We don't have any rules about how long you can book the aircraft for, because we don't need to. If I booked it last saturday, but wanted it again this saturday, I'd email the other two membres to see if they had any plans. We often fly together, and we all muck in with the maintenance (I've learned an awfull lot about a/c maintenance since owning this a/c). It is kept in excellent condition, as we feel like we really do own it, and take great pride. Best of all is the cost. OK the initial share ins't cheap at £10k, but £100 per month then £25 per hour makes for really cheap flying. It's a great a/c to fly too 120kts with lots of gizmo's (efis, AP etc..)
So, my experiece says, buy a PFA type in a small group with people you get on with.
The first was a large group (15 people) flying a nice, but tired
Robin. The availability was the worst point. Working 9-5 I can really only fly at weekends, which seemed to be the same for most people. If you wanted to fly on a saturday, you'd need to book up to two months in advance. Not good if you want to be a little spontaneous. Also, the a/c was a bit 'shabby' , and resembled more of a flying school aircraft. As another posted suggested, being in a group so big, you never really felf like you owned the aircraft, more like to paid a retainer, then rented it. The share price for the a/c was £2,500, with £80 p/m and £65 per hour.
Now, I'm in a group of 3 operating a virtually brand new Tri gear Europa. We don't have any rules about how long you can book the aircraft for, because we don't need to. If I booked it last saturday, but wanted it again this saturday, I'd email the other two membres to see if they had any plans. We often fly together, and we all muck in with the maintenance (I've learned an awfull lot about a/c maintenance since owning this a/c). It is kept in excellent condition, as we feel like we really do own it, and take great pride. Best of all is the cost. OK the initial share ins't cheap at £10k, but £100 per month then £25 per hour makes for really cheap flying. It's a great a/c to fly too 120kts with lots of gizmo's (efis, AP etc..)
So, my experiece says, buy a PFA type in a small group with people you get on with.
