Gliding in the dark
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: beverley
Wimps!
The engine does not know its dark! No more dangerous than imc engine faliure if the cloud base at your intended crash site is 100 ft and there are 80 ft trees you will not see them coming either
(Just doing my night rating by the way
)
The engine does not know its dark! No more dangerous than imc engine faliure if the cloud base at your intended crash site is 100 ft and there are 80 ft trees you will not see them coming either
(Just doing my night rating by the way
)
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
I have a 3rd gen scope on the top of my rifle for dropping furry things in the dark. Great for that, not sure if I would want to fl my plane using it.
On the other hand I have many hundreds of hours flying in the dark MEP and in SEP at night and it does not bother me. The engine does not know it is dark and I will just go with the old landing light joke!
On the other hand I have many hundreds of hours flying in the dark MEP and in SEP at night and it does not bother me. The engine does not know it is dark and I will just go with the old landing light joke!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
From: Dagobah
As for leaving your plane to smash into some poor blokes house cos's you baled out...well, is that not what the military do?! The aeroplane is going to come down wheather you stay in it and be a hero or not...
As for being "wimps", well perhaps you wont feel so smug when you know somebody who dies cos the engine failed at night! As I mentioned in an earier forum, I lost my best friend because of an engine failing at night and over the water (and let me tell you that a controlled ditching in the North Sea at night is not going to be my first choice) should I be foolish enough to fly 'SE' at night again. And by the way, his last words were to me "Whats the chances of the engine failing at night?"
Sure the engine might not know it's dark, but is that a risk your prepared to take? Not me anymore.
Your choice of course!
As for being "wimps", well perhaps you wont feel so smug when you know somebody who dies cos the engine failed at night! As I mentioned in an earier forum, I lost my best friend because of an engine failing at night and over the water (and let me tell you that a controlled ditching in the North Sea at night is not going to be my first choice) should I be foolish enough to fly 'SE' at night again. And by the way, his last words were to me "Whats the chances of the engine failing at night?"
Sure the engine might not know it's dark, but is that a risk your prepared to take? Not me anymore.
Your choice of course!
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Yep and my mate who smokes 40 fags a day reckons he will never get cancer. My best friend who was killed on his motorbyke when he pulled out into oncoming traffic also reckoned it would not happen to him.
But life is about risk regardless of what the nanny state will try and do. While I sympathise with your loss I dont need you to try and convince me or anyone else that your opinion that night flying SE is foolish is the correct one. We all free to make our own choices based on our own risk assessment.
But life is about risk regardless of what the nanny state will try and do. While I sympathise with your loss I dont need you to try and convince me or anyone else that your opinion that night flying SE is foolish is the correct one. We all free to make our own choices based on our own risk assessment.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
From: 75N 16E
Get a NV monocular from Walmart. I bought one for $70 and used it for night flying, SE, over the high desert in California. Brilliant it was too for verifying you were not going to hit a mountain.
Ideally you want tactical thermal imaging goggles
Ideally you want tactical thermal imaging goggles
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
From: Not a million miles from EGTF
Surely the issue is about being made aware of the problems associated with night flight.
Most airfields I fly from shut at sunset, but on occasion return to the home-base would have been made easier with a 30 minute or 1 hour extra availability
I've had only a short experience but I found that just because God puts the lights out, does not mean I have to panic.
All flight is a risk and there will always be tragic incidents - I've lost my share of good friends in aviation accidents, but more through car crashes.
Most airfields I fly from shut at sunset, but on occasion return to the home-base would have been made easier with a 30 minute or 1 hour extra availability
I've had only a short experience but I found that just because God puts the lights out, does not mean I have to panic.
All flight is a risk and there will always be tragic incidents - I've lost my share of good friends in aviation accidents, but more through car crashes.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Great idea. You get out and leave your uncontrolled plane to smash into some poor sods house.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
From: Dagobah
Absolutely your personal choice! just expressing my opinion on the subject like anybody else! Those that are for and those that are against, that's life!
The loss of my friend had a bigger impact on my close family than me, they had to let me go off and finish my night training knowing what had happened, not nice for them either.
I'll shut up on the matter now as it still upsets me.
Each to their own I guess.
The loss of my friend had a bigger impact on my close family than me, they had to let me go off and finish my night training knowing what had happened, not nice for them either.
I'll shut up on the matter now as it still upsets me.
Each to their own I guess.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Leicestershire
In order to work out how dangerous flying at night is, we need to look at the statistics. Perceived risk and actual risk are often very different.
The only fatal crash at night that I can recall was a CFIT crash. I can't recall any fatal crashes caused by engine failures at night in the UK. I would be surprised if night flying weren't more dangerous than day flying, but it may well be that the danger comes from an increased probability of CFIT and loss of control. The single-engine failure that people get worried about may not be much of a factor.
The only fatal crash at night that I can recall was a CFIT crash. I can't recall any fatal crashes caused by engine failures at night in the UK. I would be surprised if night flying weren't more dangerous than day flying, but it may well be that the danger comes from an increased probability of CFIT and loss of control. The single-engine failure that people get worried about may not be much of a factor.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
In order to work out how dangerous flying at night is, we need to look at the statistics. Perceived risk and actual risk are often very different.
If, for some of us, the perceived risk is enough to make us feel unhappy then we ain't going to do it - the real risk doesn't matter. Do remember that we fly for fun, and that when it stops being fun the obvious choice is to stay on the ground!
(As a councillor I come across this one all the time, in the difference between "crime" and "fear of crime". If a little old lady is too frightened to leave the house to go to bingo of an evening, and you put in some street lights or CCTV cameras or whatever and she now feels able to go out, then a real person's real quality of life has been improved even though crime continues at exactly the same rate as before.)
Guest
Posts: n/a
GTW,
I don't buy those arguments. Life just ends up as some kind of hideous layer cake with everybody responding to false shadows. Pilots know how to manage risk and that means stepping outside with the express intention of dealing with matters as they are, not as they are presented.
Hmm, I'm begining to write Jetblasterish
I don't buy those arguments. Life just ends up as some kind of hideous layer cake with everybody responding to false shadows. Pilots know how to manage risk and that means stepping outside with the express intention of dealing with matters as they are, not as they are presented.
Hmm, I'm begining to write Jetblasterish
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
From: Dagobah
romeo romeo, my friends accident was not CFIT but rather engine failure followed by a controlled ditching and subsequent drowning due to extreme cold and strong currents. was several years ago now.
My intention is not to try and stop anybody as I really couldnt care less, but I would avoid calling people wimps for choosing not to fly single engine at night!
May the force
My intention is not to try and stop anybody as I really couldnt care less, but I would avoid calling people wimps for choosing not to fly single engine at night!
May the force
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: beverley
My "wimps" remark may have been taken the wrong way,and it is each to their own. I think my wife is a wimp because she will not drive unless the car has airbags,power steering or abs,as a lifelong racer of all things vehicle,I find it ridiculous!
S.E night flying may be dangerous(?) as would being a ferry pilot over the atlantic without a life jacket,but for me avoiding something because you could come unstuck is not a good enough reason.
Not trying to start an argument here,just my view.
S.E night flying may be dangerous(?) as would being a ferry pilot over the atlantic without a life jacket,but for me avoiding something because you could come unstuck is not a good enough reason.
Not trying to start an argument here,just my view.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Leicestershire
Hi YoungSkywalker,
I was trying to avoid referring to any specific accident in my post because there may be those on this forum who were directly affected. I certainly wasn't referring to the one you mention and my condolences go to anyone who has lost loved ones.
I have fortunately never been affected by a serious aviation related incident and if I had I'm sure that would change my judgement. We all make decisions based on our own experiences and risk-assessments. Anyone's decision to avoid risk is valid and as you said, it's wrong to criticise those decisions (although I'm sure it was meant in a tongue-in-cheek way).
GtW
I'm right with you on the
bit. I haven't flown at night for a few years now because it's not that convenient, but when I did, I felt a lot more at home than when I fly in IMC for example. However, am I right to feel that way? Am I doing something really dangerous and being blissfully unaware and if so, why is it dangerous, what can be done to mitigate those risks and is it any more dangerous than other things I do - like single engine IMC flying?
I was trying to avoid referring to any specific accident in my post because there may be those on this forum who were directly affected. I certainly wasn't referring to the one you mention and my condolences go to anyone who has lost loved ones.
I have fortunately never been affected by a serious aviation related incident and if I had I'm sure that would change my judgement. We all make decisions based on our own experiences and risk-assessments. Anyone's decision to avoid risk is valid and as you said, it's wrong to criticise those decisions (although I'm sure it was meant in a tongue-in-cheek way).
GtW
I'm right with you on the
we fly for fun, and that when it stops being fun the obvious choice is to stay on the ground!
Guest
Posts: n/a
MarkFlyer
Your comments that people are ''wimps'' demonstrates the worst kind of peer group pressure, which can lead to reinforcement of poor decision making.
Flying at night in an SEP is no longer my thing, but I have done it in the past.
My attitude to the risks involved has changed and so has my decision making.
But I will not call anyone ''stupid'' or ''foolhardy'' because they take a different view. Pilots will consider the scenario and make up their own minds, they do not need name calling, even with a smiley afterwards.
You ought to avoid making such crass comments on a forum where there are many low hour PPLs, they don't need your bias, especially when it is based on a rating that you do not even hold.
FYI, I have held my night rating since 1994.
Your comments that people are ''wimps'' demonstrates the worst kind of peer group pressure, which can lead to reinforcement of poor decision making.
Flying at night in an SEP is no longer my thing, but I have done it in the past.
My attitude to the risks involved has changed and so has my decision making.
But I will not call anyone ''stupid'' or ''foolhardy'' because they take a different view. Pilots will consider the scenario and make up their own minds, they do not need name calling, even with a smiley afterwards.
You ought to avoid making such crass comments on a forum where there are many low hour PPLs, they don't need your bias, especially when it is based on a rating that you do not even hold.
FYI, I have held my night rating since 1994.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
From: Someplace where the water smells
IM a low hours PPL, and have held my night rating since sunday. I dont really plan on using it much, its just there if a day flight over-runs and i need to land after sunset. or if i want to do some circuits at night and the engine does go "pop" i can glide back to the airfield.
I wouldnt consider myself a "wimp" though? But if thats what a "wimp" is, then im happy to be a wimp thats alive.
Happy flying all!
I wouldnt consider myself a "wimp" though? But if thats what a "wimp" is, then im happy to be a wimp thats alive.
Happy flying all!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: beverley
Final three greens
I see where you are coming from and you are right that peer pressure leads to bad decisions. I never have and never will force somebody in to doing something they don't want to.
I have seen some pretty bad flying descision making in the past but I don't like to point it out to people since I am one of the low hour ppl's you mention.
I would hope that pilots,having put the effort in to training for something that not everybody can do,would not be the types to bow to peer pressure.Certainly if I was to try it in my club I would get a decent earfull of some body.
I was not trying to cause offence or bias people.
As Romeo romeo says there have not been too many fatal night crashes,especially compared to people who pile in whilst pushing the limits of the weather in daylight.
My point is that if it was as dangerous as people make out there would be more accidents and a multi only night rating,most of the discussion hinges on "what if",if we all lived like this,not just in flying not much would get done.
I do not take risks,for two reasons:1)I have a wife and two young children to support,2)I do not consider myself experienced enough to push it!
I have enjoyed night flying mainly for the view and I will not be setting off in the dark to often however I will certainly time some flights for 30 min dark on the return just for experience.
On the subject I watched that program about the Air Transat Airbus that glided miles over the water to a safe landing-now that was some good flying
I see where you are coming from and you are right that peer pressure leads to bad decisions. I never have and never will force somebody in to doing something they don't want to.
I have seen some pretty bad flying descision making in the past but I don't like to point it out to people since I am one of the low hour ppl's you mention.
I would hope that pilots,having put the effort in to training for something that not everybody can do,would not be the types to bow to peer pressure.Certainly if I was to try it in my club I would get a decent earfull of some body.
I was not trying to cause offence or bias people.
As Romeo romeo says there have not been too many fatal night crashes,especially compared to people who pile in whilst pushing the limits of the weather in daylight.
My point is that if it was as dangerous as people make out there would be more accidents and a multi only night rating,most of the discussion hinges on "what if",if we all lived like this,not just in flying not much would get done.
I do not take risks,for two reasons:1)I have a wife and two young children to support,2)I do not consider myself experienced enough to push it!
I have enjoyed night flying mainly for the view and I will not be setting off in the dark to often however I will certainly time some flights for 30 min dark on the return just for experience.
On the subject I watched that program about the Air Transat Airbus that glided miles over the water to a safe landing-now that was some good flying
Last edited by markflyer6580; 27th November 2005 at 12:09.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
there have not been too many fatal night crashes
By that I mean flying at 2am under a thick overcast when it is pitch black, few if any street lights down below, and zero prospect of navigating the good ole fashioned methods PPLs are taught. It's 100% instrument flight, IFR navigation. People that do that are going to be instrument pilots, flying decent planes, and not many of those crash due to CFITs or engine failures.
