Flying over fog...
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The purpose behind the UK “remaining in sight of the surface” requirements would seem to be quite clear. Firstly visual navigation is no longer possible - you might therefore get lost without training (or a GPS!). Secondly a descent on instruments will be required - the outcome of which is likely to be poor without training.
Unless I am missing the obvious both these problems remain for the non instrument rated pilot - whether it is above cloud or above fog. I don’t see in either situation how the flight would be legal without an IMC or IR.
Having been above fog more than a few times there remains four things in a SEP that makes me very uncomfortable - fog, night, hostile terrain, and very low cloud. Fog is beautiful BUT be in no doubt your chances following an engine failure will not be good. It is of course down to your own risk assessment and rightly so - there are those always happy to take the risk.
“One question, if there is fog and the conditions are below VMC minima can you fly with IMC rating or is it IFR and you have to file an IFR flight plan, then if conditions improve cancel the IFR plan and go to VFR? Also do you have to have a full IR rating to file and IFR Flight Plan?”
You can fly with an IMC, you don’t have to file an IFR flight plan but you can with an IMC. You can file an IFR flight plan without an IMC or IR - don’t confuse the met conditions with being IFR, you can perfectly well be IFR in perfect VMC on an IFR flight plan.
Unless I am missing the obvious both these problems remain for the non instrument rated pilot - whether it is above cloud or above fog. I don’t see in either situation how the flight would be legal without an IMC or IR.
Having been above fog more than a few times there remains four things in a SEP that makes me very uncomfortable - fog, night, hostile terrain, and very low cloud. Fog is beautiful BUT be in no doubt your chances following an engine failure will not be good. It is of course down to your own risk assessment and rightly so - there are those always happy to take the risk.
“One question, if there is fog and the conditions are below VMC minima can you fly with IMC rating or is it IFR and you have to file an IFR flight plan, then if conditions improve cancel the IFR plan and go to VFR? Also do you have to have a full IR rating to file and IFR Flight Plan?”
You can fly with an IMC, you don’t have to file an IFR flight plan but you can with an IMC. You can file an IFR flight plan without an IMC or IR - don’t confuse the met conditions with being IFR, you can perfectly well be IFR in perfect VMC on an IFR flight plan.
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Fuji - one reason cross-fixing with a couple of VORs is now included in the PPL syllabus is to ensure that a pilot has something else up his sleeve if visual separation from the ground ensues. Did make note of your use of the word 'might' though, merely opinionating. 
Not making excuses because of course not everyone has the luxury of one - let alone two - radio navigation aids and it can be disorientating above banks and banks of cloud, but just suggesting that a well prepared pilot should never be in a position where they are adamantly unsure of their position... it's hard for London to confirm who they are looking at when you pass your mayday without at least an approximate position!
Either way, it's always worth recalling that handy reminder to us all that "Landings are compulsory, takeoffs are not," and I'm in full agreement with FujiFlyer that there are only so many ways 'in sight of the surface' can be interpreted. Low level fog? Apply the relevant IMC limitations that are going to affect you in the immediate, i.e. said fog.
Cheers, Jack.
Not making excuses because of course not everyone has the luxury of one - let alone two - radio navigation aids and it can be disorientating above banks and banks of cloud, but just suggesting that a well prepared pilot should never be in a position where they are adamantly unsure of their position... it's hard for London to confirm who they are looking at when you pass your mayday without at least an approximate position!
Either way, it's always worth recalling that handy reminder to us all that "Landings are compulsory, takeoffs are not," and I'm in full agreement with FujiFlyer that there are only so many ways 'in sight of the surface' can be interpreted. Low level fog? Apply the relevant IMC limitations that are going to affect you in the immediate, i.e. said fog.
Cheers, Jack.
It's also why the practice diversion is included in the PPL Skill Test.....
I say to my lucky victims "Uh-oh - the Met Office lied to us. There's a sheet of fog covering everwhere beyond that town ahead. So, when you are ready to, please take me here" 'Here' being the diversion aerodrome whose information I then give him from Pooleys.
It's been freezing cold and foggy ALL DAY here in British West Oxfordshire - even the birds have been walking.
I say to my lucky victims "Uh-oh - the Met Office lied to us. There's a sheet of fog covering everwhere beyond that town ahead. So, when you are ready to, please take me here" 'Here' being the diversion aerodrome whose information I then give him from Pooleys.
It's been freezing cold and foggy ALL DAY here in British West Oxfordshire - even the birds have been walking.
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It's also why the practice diversion is included in the PPL Skill Test.....
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I enjoyed my diversion from ~ overhead RAF Fairford @ 6,500' on Sunday when I learned Kemble was closed and diverted to Enstone when I learned they were clear. It was good because these days I typically cheat and just enter "Direct To" in the GPS, but Enstone isn't in our GPS database, so I had to do it the old fashioned way, with the map and my thumb! Was very pleased to find Enstone where I expceted it to be..! 
Some pics if interested here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...85#post2220285 and here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyhardy/sets/1405427/
Andy
Was very pleased to find Enstone where I expceted it to be..! Some pics if interested here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...85#post2220285 and here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyhardy/sets/1405427/
Andy
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I wouldn't say that PPL training (not what I got 5 years ago, for sure) is adequate for navigation when surface features are not VERY clearly visible.
It's all very well to do a VOR/VOR (or VOR/DME but then DME is not covered in the PPL at all) fix but what if there isn't a VOR/DME in range?
Also, a lot of rental planes don't carry the equipment, or it doesn't work.
There are a lot of double standards in this business, but in this already massively over-regulated activity one must never argue for a reduction of privileges
It's all very well to do a VOR/VOR (or VOR/DME but then DME is not covered in the PPL at all) fix but what if there isn't a VOR/DME in range?
Also, a lot of rental planes don't carry the equipment, or it doesn't work.
There are a lot of double standards in this business, but in this already massively over-regulated activity one must never argue for a reduction of privileges
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Under simple CAA-only rules i.e. UK airspace, a G-reg plane and a UK issued PPL, the pilot can fly IFR (which includes filing a flight plan to that effect, either an airborne one or the full ICAO job) provided he remains within his VFR rules (3000m vis, clear of cloud, in sight of the surface etc) and remains in Class G (or, not exactly applicable to the UK, E or F).
What would be the point of a plain PPL flying under IFR?
IFR traffic gets a better service from ATC, and is much more likely to get a radar service, so that could be one reason. But this won't cut much ice if there is wall to wall sunshine everywhere; ATC do have windows too
I suppose that an experienced PPL flying in marginal VFR conditions would be better off calling himself "IFR".
As for putting "IFR" on an ICAO flight plan, that is something I don't see any point in. Especially if flying over 2000kg
What would be the point of a plain PPL flying under IFR?
IFR traffic gets a better service from ATC, and is much more likely to get a radar service, so that could be one reason. But this won't cut much ice if there is wall to wall sunshine everywhere; ATC do have windows too
I suppose that an experienced PPL flying in marginal VFR conditions would be better off calling himself "IFR".
As for putting "IFR" on an ICAO flight plan, that is something I don't see any point in. Especially if flying over 2000kg
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MayorQuimby - correct, but of course Cadahar was talking about the IMC which is a unique UK rating and therefore I think his question was concerned with UK airspace. You can be on an IFR flight plan in the UK without any form of instrument rating so long as you remain outside of Class A and D airspace and meet the VFR visibility and cloud separation requirements. In the UK it is common for pilots to think that because they are IFR then they are also IMC - of course this is not so.
IO540 - I agree. That was of course the real basis behind my point, whilst being aware of the limited additional nav work now in the PPL syllabus.
As I commented earlier the problem with fog, just as with cloud, is that you are reliant on some other form of navigation than visual. Of course with a moving map it is easy and I guess most PPLs without an instrument rating would get on fine if they had taught themselves how to use a moving map GPS. How well they would get on with VORs and NDBs is more debatable - maybe OK straight after their training, maybe less well a year or so on if they had stopped practising these skills.
I have always thought it strange given this that in France and elsewhere VFR on top without instrument privileges is of course legal (on a French as opposed to UK license I might add). Is this because they do more instrument navigation training? It is also true of the States and you don’t seem to hear of all that many pilots getting themselves lost (do you??). Mind you I have always thought it a risky business without instrument training to get yourself above cloud relying on a forecast clearance in the cloud at your destination to get yourself down. Moreover in the event of an engine failure whilst over cloud you will still need some instrument skills to get yourself visual and that certainly is not the time you want to be under pressure when you have enough to cope with anyway!
I read a fascinating account of a fellow in the States in a Money who suffered a total engine failure at FL140 whilst clear on top, and did a dead stick landing into an airport near the edge of his glide range descending through 4,000 feet of undercast. I might add he was instrument rated, but it would be possible in the States and France for a non instrument rated pilot to find themselves in the same situation.
PS just seen I0540s post sorry for the duplication. I would just add there is at least one occasion I can think where a non-IRed pilot might declare himself IFR that is very appropriate at this time of year - flying into the dreaded sum! Often rear viz is excellent but it can be a real struggle to pick up aircraft ahead. I see no reason not to tell ATC you are IFR and why - as I0540 says you will get a better service even if they are busy if you explain why and it also does no harm adopting IFR separation.
IO540 - I agree. That was of course the real basis behind my point, whilst being aware of the limited additional nav work now in the PPL syllabus.
As I commented earlier the problem with fog, just as with cloud, is that you are reliant on some other form of navigation than visual. Of course with a moving map it is easy and I guess most PPLs without an instrument rating would get on fine if they had taught themselves how to use a moving map GPS. How well they would get on with VORs and NDBs is more debatable - maybe OK straight after their training, maybe less well a year or so on if they had stopped practising these skills.
I have always thought it strange given this that in France and elsewhere VFR on top without instrument privileges is of course legal (on a French as opposed to UK license I might add). Is this because they do more instrument navigation training? It is also true of the States and you don’t seem to hear of all that many pilots getting themselves lost (do you??). Mind you I have always thought it a risky business without instrument training to get yourself above cloud relying on a forecast clearance in the cloud at your destination to get yourself down. Moreover in the event of an engine failure whilst over cloud you will still need some instrument skills to get yourself visual and that certainly is not the time you want to be under pressure when you have enough to cope with anyway!
I read a fascinating account of a fellow in the States in a Money who suffered a total engine failure at FL140 whilst clear on top, and did a dead stick landing into an airport near the edge of his glide range descending through 4,000 feet of undercast. I might add he was instrument rated, but it would be possible in the States and France for a non instrument rated pilot to find themselves in the same situation.
PS just seen I0540s post sorry for the duplication. I would just add there is at least one occasion I can think where a non-IRed pilot might declare himself IFR that is very appropriate at this time of year - flying into the dreaded sum! Often rear viz is excellent but it can be a real struggle to pick up aircraft ahead. I see no reason not to tell ATC you are IFR and why - as I0540 says you will get a better service even if they are busy if you explain why and it also does no harm adopting IFR separation.
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I was flying in company with Mono on the trip in question.
We flew Popham to Kemble via South Marston and Blakehill Farm. Fairford is NOTAMmed active so we spoke to Brize en-route.
All clear of fog to South Marston, which was clearly visible. Blakehill Farm was under fog but Kemble was visible, as was Aston Down. The odd patch of ground was also visible in between and we were at 2500 ft. Effectively there was a ribbon of fog with totally clear vis on either side of it.
That's the background. From a pure survivability point of view an engine failure would have entailed heading for the nearest reachable bit of visible ground and I don't think we were at any time out of reach of visible surface.
Fog is less than a couple of wingspans deep and goes down to the ground. The outcome of an enforced descent through it is likely to be the same whether you have an IMC, IR or vanilla PPL.
So to me flying over a band of fog where you can see both sides is a bit like flying over a stretch of hostile terrain where your choices are limited if the whirly thing at the front stops going round. All aircraft engines recognise these situations and give you subtle aural stimuli just to keep you on your toes.
We flew Popham to Kemble via South Marston and Blakehill Farm. Fairford is NOTAMmed active so we spoke to Brize en-route.
All clear of fog to South Marston, which was clearly visible. Blakehill Farm was under fog but Kemble was visible, as was Aston Down. The odd patch of ground was also visible in between and we were at 2500 ft. Effectively there was a ribbon of fog with totally clear vis on either side of it.
That's the background. From a pure survivability point of view an engine failure would have entailed heading for the nearest reachable bit of visible ground and I don't think we were at any time out of reach of visible surface.
Fog is less than a couple of wingspans deep and goes down to the ground. The outcome of an enforced descent through it is likely to be the same whether you have an IMC, IR or vanilla PPL.
So to me flying over a band of fog where you can see both sides is a bit like flying over a stretch of hostile terrain where your choices are limited if the whirly thing at the front stops going round. All aircraft engines recognise these situations and give you subtle aural stimuli just to keep you on your toes.
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We did the Kemble diversion thing on Sunday as well. The fog was great to fly over and I got some great pics as well as meeting the unsuspecting Aussie Andy flying the over engined warrior! Was that a former man in the pink jeans?
First time in about 1500hrs I had to get the map out and do a bit of old fashioned navigation, pleased to say my thumb is still the same size and Enstone appeared where expected!!!
First time in about 1500hrs I had to get the map out and do a bit of old fashioned navigation, pleased to say my thumb is still the same size and Enstone appeared where expected!!!
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bose-x,
My brother and I reckoned the same thing!!
Good to meet you; did you end up at Turweston eventually, or head straight home?
Andy
Was that a former man in the pink jeans?
Good to meet you; did you end up at Turweston eventually, or head straight home?
Andy
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We went on to Turweston, it would have been rude not to after I ran up your phone bill!! We had a coffee and fuel and then onwards. Apart from the aborted Kemble visit it turned out to be a great days flying.
I am glad the consenus on "miss" pink jeans was the same!
steve
I am glad the consenus on "miss" pink jeans was the same!
steve
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But it might not stay as fog... Just a little increase in wind speed, and the fog lifts into stratus.... "I learned about flying from that", Pilot Magzine Dec 1997 for those of you with long shelves.
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Indeed Irv, as happened here in the SW yesterday around Filton, I have just completed Mod1 ATPLs and the wife was asking about the fog & how it forms (bless her, she is interested really) , I told her the conditions for it forming and what happens if the wind speed increases, we did a lil Christmas shopping and when we came out we had the low stratus due to an increase in wind, result was as expected, the sun had totally disappeared and the visability would have been even worse had we been in the air.
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Deano777 - if it's a surprise when you come out of the shop, imagine what it's like when you're happily crossing over it at the level it decides to 'stratrate' at. (made that word up, don't use it in your ATPL classroom discussions 
)
)
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Ooh, sorry to annoy so many of you this weekend, I can't control the winds so I am afraid I was stuck over most of the uk last weekend.
I do apologies for this of course but never mind, keeps you lot on your toes eh!
Nice pictures by the way. It is not that often I get to see myself. Do you have anymore?
This week, I will be covering almost everywhere, tending to settle overnight and clearing away in the mornings, don't like the sun too much don't you know, makes the place warm, can't handle warm me, just nice cold ground for me to hug and a slight wind.
Safe flying guys.
I do apologies for this of course but never mind, keeps you lot on your toes eh!
Nice pictures by the way. It is not that often I get to see myself. Do you have anymore?
This week, I will be covering almost everywhere, tending to settle overnight and clearing away in the mornings, don't like the sun too much don't you know, makes the place warm, can't handle warm me, just nice cold ground for me to hug and a slight wind.
Safe flying guys.
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But it might not stay as fog... Just a little increase in wind speed, and the fog lifts into stratus.... "I learned about flying from that", Pilot Magzine Dec 1997 for those of you with long shelves.
Now I just need a way to keep my IMC current and up-to-speed - how about an IMC Master-Class!?!
Nice pictures by the way. It is not that often I get to see myself. Do you have anymore?
Andy