N-Reg hire uk?
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N-Reg hire uk?
Hello team,
I have just completed an FAA PPL and i'm off home on monday. Have any of you kind folks any information whatsoever regarding the hire of N-Reg aircraft in Great Britain and Europe respectively. Google appears to be unable to help me. Thanks in advance
D'Vay
I have just completed an FAA PPL and i'm off home on monday. Have any of you kind folks any information whatsoever regarding the hire of N-Reg aircraft in Great Britain and Europe respectively. Google appears to be unable to help me. Thanks in advance
D'Vay
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Just in case you're under the impression that an FAA PPL prevents you from hiring G-reg aircraft, you need have no fear.
Your FAA PPL is a licence "rendered valid" under the ANO and is good for G-reg hire too.
2D
Your FAA PPL is a licence "rendered valid" under the ANO and is good for G-reg hire too.
2D
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If you have a FAA IR then you need N to exercise the privileges, but otherwise you can fly G on an FAA PPL VFR only.
See
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...=170&faqid=208
If you have an IR then there's a very nice BE36 at Fairoaks
See
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...=170&faqid=208
If you have an IR then there's a very nice BE36 at Fairoaks
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When I moved back to the UK (from the USA) in 1998, I flew extensively on my FAA licences in G registered aircraft. The only restriction that I understood applied to me was that I had to remain within the UK FIR and stay day VFR (not a problem as my local fields are not lit nor do they have approaches). I have since picked up a JAA PPL (relatively easy conversion) and an IMC which gives only a bit more flexibility (trips to France, etc) but not much more. In other words, as a recreational flyer, you can probably do all of the flying you want on your FAA licence.
I found that all aeroplane hire places were very happy to hire to me with an FAA only licence although the same cannot be said for helicopters - my local helicopter outfit wanted me to have a JAA licence before they would hire to me (again, the conversion was easy).
Before you take off, it would make a lot of sense to spend a couple of hours with an instructor or a very experienced PPL to learn about the local airspace, weather and notam dissemination, r/t phraseology (bit different to the USA) and general airfield operating practices. I generally picked this up as I went along but a bit help was very useful. The first several pages of the Pooley's guide gives some very useful practical information for UK flying.
Enjoy!
I found that all aeroplane hire places were very happy to hire to me with an FAA only licence although the same cannot be said for helicopters - my local helicopter outfit wanted me to have a JAA licence before they would hire to me (again, the conversion was easy).
Before you take off, it would make a lot of sense to spend a couple of hours with an instructor or a very experienced PPL to learn about the local airspace, weather and notam dissemination, r/t phraseology (bit different to the USA) and general airfield operating practices. I generally picked this up as I went along but a bit help was very useful. The first several pages of the Pooley's guide gives some very useful practical information for UK flying.
Enjoy!
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The "DAY" only restriction is often recited around these parts, but has no basis in fact. Your FAA PPL will normally permit night flying privileges, and these privileges are valid in the UK provided that
FAA currency criteria are met.
The fact that night flight is conducted substantially under IFR in the UK has no bearing on this at all.
2D
FAA currency criteria are met.
The fact that night flight is conducted substantially under IFR in the UK has no bearing on this at all.
2D
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They are, but only under a filed difference between ICAO practice and UK practice.
ICAO calls for such licences rendered valid to be "validated" with some official document issued by the National CAA. We validate ICAO licences using the ANO and issue no letters of validation.
That might occasionally cause a misunderstanding when travelling abroad, but it doesn't limit the geographical use that an ICAO PPL can make of a G-reg aircraft.
2D
ICAO calls for such licences rendered valid to be "validated" with some official document issued by the National CAA. We validate ICAO licences using the ANO and issue no letters of validation.
That might occasionally cause a misunderstanding when travelling abroad, but it doesn't limit the geographical use that an ICAO PPL can make of a G-reg aircraft.
2D
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JAR licence in N Reg in France?
2Donkeys..
Although a different question, I was always under the impression that a JAR licence holder, flying an N-Reg plane was limited to the country of registration of the aircraft, say the UK in the case of most people I know.
Yet a friend of mine recently met a CAA bod at a party that told him that on a standard JAR PPL, if you fly an N-Reg aircraft, you could fly it outside UK airspace (e.g. go to France) under a reciprocal agreement of some sort, without any additional FAA paperwork.
Is this right?
Ian
Although a different question, I was always under the impression that a JAR licence holder, flying an N-Reg plane was limited to the country of registration of the aircraft, say the UK in the case of most people I know.
Yet a friend of mine recently met a CAA bod at a party that told him that on a standard JAR PPL, if you fly an N-Reg aircraft, you could fly it outside UK airspace (e.g. go to France) under a reciprocal agreement of some sort, without any additional FAA paperwork.
Is this right?
Ian
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He is wrong, and the governing law is the FARs in this instance. (The governing law for who may use an aircraft is the law of the aircraft's registry).
The FARs tell us that in order to fly an N-registered aircraft you must EITHER:
Hold a valid FAA ticket; OR
Hold a ticket ISSUED in the country in which you wish to fly.
[This is contained in FAR 61.3(a)(1)]
The fly in the ointment is that whilst JAR is a common set of standards (in theory), a JAR licence is still issued by a specific state. Therefore whilst a UK-issued JAR licence is good for flying an N-reg in the UK, it is not valid for flying that aircraft in (say) France.
2D
The FARs tell us that in order to fly an N-registered aircraft you must EITHER:
Hold a valid FAA ticket; OR
Hold a ticket ISSUED in the country in which you wish to fly.
[This is contained in FAR 61.3(a)(1)]
The fly in the ointment is that whilst JAR is a common set of standards (in theory), a JAR licence is still issued by a specific state. Therefore whilst a UK-issued JAR licence is good for flying an N-reg in the UK, it is not valid for flying that aircraft in (say) France.
2D
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Licensing issues aside, I'd bet that anyone who is renting out an N-reg in the UK is going to be a whole lot more fussy about who flies it than the average flying school. And I write with a bit of personal experience on this.
Unless somebody is keeping an N-reg as a "let people smash it on the runway and scrap it when it gets beyond repair" cash cow (the way most G-reg self fly hire / PPL training planes are kept) it is likely to be something in good condition, and most likely a "complex" and relatively well equipped aircraft.
So unless you are a high-hour pilot and completely familiar with the type and the particular avionics, expect more than one quick "checkout" flight.
Unless somebody is keeping an N-reg as a "let people smash it on the runway and scrap it when it gets beyond repair" cash cow (the way most G-reg self fly hire / PPL training planes are kept) it is likely to be something in good condition, and most likely a "complex" and relatively well equipped aircraft.
So unless you are a high-hour pilot and completely familiar with the type and the particular avionics, expect more than one quick "checkout" flight.
"Yet a friend of mine recently met a CAA bod at a party that told him that on a standard JAR PPL, if you fly an N-Reg aircraft, you could fly it outside UK airspace (e.g. go to France) under a reciprocal agreement of some sort, without any additional FAA paperwork."
Clearly the CAA bod is not familiar with FARs but then you wouldn't really expect him to be.
As far as I am aware you cannot legaly hire a N reg aircraft in the UK. Federal rules again.
Clearly the CAA bod is not familiar with FARs but then you wouldn't really expect him to be.
As far as I am aware you cannot legaly hire a N reg aircraft in the UK. Federal rules again.
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"As far as I am aware you cannot legaly hire a N reg aircraft in the UK. Federal rules again."
Where exactly is this rule? I must confess to having never heard of it, and can see no logical reason why you WOUL D be prevented from hiring an N reg is you so wish....any info appreciated!
Bill P
Where exactly is this rule? I must confess to having never heard of it, and can see no logical reason why you WOUL D be prevented from hiring an N reg is you so wish....any info appreciated!
Bill P
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gawd knows. There are some funny rules.
The way I understand it, you cannot "Rent" an N reg in the UK in the traditional sense, you can however "dry lease" one. Same thing really, you essentially rent the aircraft dry and pay for the fuel yourself. Not sure if you have to say beforehand "I'm going to lease this aircraft for 5 hours" or just take it away and bring it back when done.
Probably something to do with the DfT......
The way I understand it, you cannot "Rent" an N reg in the UK in the traditional sense, you can however "dry lease" one. Same thing really, you essentially rent the aircraft dry and pay for the fuel yourself. Not sure if you have to say beforehand "I'm going to lease this aircraft for 5 hours" or just take it away and bring it back when done.
Probably something to do with the DfT......
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I've checked this out exhaustively, in the UK and in the USA, and (while I could still be wrong) everything indicates that "dry leasing" and generally not being able to rent an N-reg in the UK are all utterly bogus. I even spoke to the DfT who confirmed that dry lease is a redherring in the private flying context.
Nevertheless, the persistence of these fairy tales is quite amazing. It must rank alongside GPS being illegal, GPS being illegal for primary navigation, MP must not exceed RPM/100 with a VP prop...
There are things one cannot ever do in a rented N in UK airspace (the DfT will never give Art 115 permission for anything, not even a BFR - unless of course the CFI/CFII is doing it for free) but that's beside the point.
Nevertheless, the persistence of these fairy tales is quite amazing. It must rank alongside GPS being illegal, GPS being illegal for primary navigation, MP must not exceed RPM/100 with a VP prop...
There are things one cannot ever do in a rented N in UK airspace (the DfT will never give Art 115 permission for anything, not even a BFR - unless of course the CFI/CFII is doing it for free) but that's beside the point.
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I too can find nothing to substantiate the view that the rental of N-registered private aircraft is inappropriate or illegal.
I suspect that it comes from a mis-reading of the rules relating to the temporary rental by airlines of N-registered airliners for operation on an AOC.
2D
I suspect that it comes from a mis-reading of the rules relating to the temporary rental by airlines of N-registered airliners for operation on an AOC.
2D
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I thought that was the case (that there is nothing wrong in "renting an N reg aircraft"
Mind you given some of the "grey " areas surrounding various N reg operations, I wouldnt be surprised if someone had misinterpreted the rules
cheers
Bill P
Mind you given some of the "grey " areas surrounding various N reg operations, I wouldnt be surprised if someone had misinterpreted the rules
cheers
Bill P
The fact that night flight is conducted substantially under IFR in the UK has no bearing on this at all.
You're quite adamant that 61.3(a)(1) must be read literally and that a licence issued by (rather than just "rendered valid by") the state of operation is required. Doesn't 61.3(e) require an IR to conduct a flight under IFR?
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Bookworm - you are presumably bothered by the requirement under FAR 61.3(e)(1) which obligates a pilot to hold (inter alia) an instrument rating in order to be able to fly under IFR, regardless of the met. conditions.
This used to bother me too until I spent an evening recently with one of the FAA's legal counsels. He pointed me to the word "appropriate" in that particular regulation.
His guidance was this. That if the pilot is operating the aircraft in accordance with a licence issued by a foreign country, and if he is operating the aircraft in that country in accordance with the privileges of that foreign issued licence, the the "appropriateness" clause of 61.3.(e)(1) was deemed to be met.
The same would apply to a pilot flying an N-reg in cloud in the UK on the strength of a UK IMC rating - all other aspects of his UK-issued licence being valid and appropriate.
You are obviously entitled to value this advice as you see fit.
2D
This used to bother me too until I spent an evening recently with one of the FAA's legal counsels. He pointed me to the word "appropriate" in that particular regulation.
His guidance was this. That if the pilot is operating the aircraft in accordance with a licence issued by a foreign country, and if he is operating the aircraft in that country in accordance with the privileges of that foreign issued licence, the the "appropriateness" clause of 61.3.(e)(1) was deemed to be met.
The same would apply to a pilot flying an N-reg in cloud in the UK on the strength of a UK IMC rating - all other aspects of his UK-issued licence being valid and appropriate.
You are obviously entitled to value this advice as you see fit.
2D