Why so much Class A around Heathrow?
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
No shooting down - just generally intersted in what you think might work. I think it is best to transit at roughly 90 degrees to the Final Approach track though.
Here is LHR and Northolf INBOUNDS only with levels as per a 3 degree GP (Won't even start on visual/SRA approaches!!)
Feel free to draw your own plans on here!
Here is LHR and Northolf INBOUNDS only with levels as per a 3 degree GP (Won't even start on visual/SRA approaches!!)
Feel free to draw your own plans on here!
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From: Middlesex
Many thanks for the profile map on the approaches - checking against multimap it would probably be possible to do a north-south route crossing both the LHR and Northolt pproaches at the 4.5 mile mark and still utilise the open spaces available in West London. Crossing corridor could be 2000-2500.
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From: 75N 16E
Nice pics Alan, you've obvioulsy put a lot of effort into this.
My suggestion is still directly overhead at say 2500' as its the safest place to be. Approach traffic is below you, departing / en-route traffic is above you or to the east / west and the only time a problem may occour is during a missed approach. Still you could avoid a conflict by limiting MAP traffic to 2000' and then they would pass 500 below any VFR traffic, which is perfectly safe. You could then as Vino points out head directly over Northolt for the same reasons, ok it means a dog-leg which would be best to avoid as a VOR radial could be used as a backup to visual nav.
I'd say that Mode C would be required and a special code sqwarked, but other than that no ATC contact required. I think if you start getting into filing slot times and stuff like that, then you might as well not bother. We'd also have to trust pilots to behave in an appropriate manner and they are indeed flying the correct altitude on the correct QNH.
Hey, here is a new idea, how about a corridor transiting all of london at a high level (FL100 or something)? Class D, ATC and Mode C required?
My suggestion is still directly overhead at say 2500' as its the safest place to be. Approach traffic is below you, departing / en-route traffic is above you or to the east / west and the only time a problem may occour is during a missed approach. Still you could avoid a conflict by limiting MAP traffic to 2000' and then they would pass 500 below any VFR traffic, which is perfectly safe. You could then as Vino points out head directly over Northolt for the same reasons, ok it means a dog-leg which would be best to avoid as a VOR radial could be used as a backup to visual nav.
I'd say that Mode C would be required and a special code sqwarked, but other than that no ATC contact required. I think if you start getting into filing slot times and stuff like that, then you might as well not bother. We'd also have to trust pilots to behave in an appropriate manner and they are indeed flying the correct altitude on the correct QNH.
Hey, here is a new idea, how about a corridor transiting all of london at a high level (FL100 or something)? Class D, ATC and Mode C required?
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Hey, here is a new idea, how about a corridor transiting all of london at a high level (FL100 or something)? Class D, ATC and Mode C required?
There is no way the CAA would let you in wothout calling ATC - you still need traffic info if standard separation is not being applied (as does the IFR) - and it is a requirement that Class D VFR flights are in ATC contact.
The routeing you suggest may work on Westerlies - but easterlies would be a little trickier because of the CPT SIDs that as Mike describes turn right onto 240degree ish from 09R and normally climb slowly (the majority of CPT deps are heavies)
Have a look:
Oh, and Actually you can route through the stacks at FL100. You just need to be IFR and file a plan. (you pay - then there's a way!!!
)So - you just need to bang a letter off to DAP and ask for Class D instead of Class A in the LHR zone.
In all seriousness, it is not us that defines the airspace - we just react to the rules as layed down by the CAA.
Good luck!
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From: Cornwall
One of the problems with the width of Heathrow's Class A is that it creates an unnecessarily narrow gap between the Heathrow and Gatwick zones, thus compromising safety.
I used to instruct at Redhill and was acutely aware of the choke points to the north of us. On a busy day it could be pretty terrifying. One of these days there will be a collision in what Alan refers to as 'MiG Alley'. And yet for several miles north of that line due west from Banstead, there is a large swathe of sanitised Class A in which I suspect few if any commercial movements have ever flown.
We all agree that the leisure fliers who use Heathrow (and more than 70 percent of them are flying for fun) need protection from general aviation (where more than 70 percent of movements are business-related or flight training). But we don't have the balance right.
I used to instruct at Redhill and was acutely aware of the choke points to the north of us. On a busy day it could be pretty terrifying. One of these days there will be a collision in what Alan refers to as 'MiG Alley'. And yet for several miles north of that line due west from Banstead, there is a large swathe of sanitised Class A in which I suspect few if any commercial movements have ever flown.
We all agree that the leisure fliers who use Heathrow (and more than 70 percent of them are flying for fun) need protection from general aviation (where more than 70 percent of movements are business-related or flight training). But we don't have the balance right.
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Pat Malone wrote:
You'd be surprised Pat, especially when there's a missed approach...maybe take a look at the 27L missed approach procedure...
WF.
And yet for several miles north of that line due west from Banstead, there is a large swathe of sanitised Class A in which I suspect few if any commercial movements have ever flown.
WF.
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From: LFMD
LAX
Just to backtrack to the LAX discussion for a moment... not only can you overfly LAX, you can even land there. I've been in there twice in my 182, once on a perfect VFR day (but on a IFR flight plan) and once in typical Socal IMC. btw the weather at LAX is often IMC especially in the morning. I had a short hold and some vectoring that time, but nothing dramatic.
It is *really* cool taxiing among all the 747s etc at LAX, especially if they land you on the northern runways since the GA terminal is on the south side. I'm pretty sure that both times mine was the only piston aircraft on the whole airport.
It isn't even expensive... the airport doesn't charge, and the FBO charges something like a $40 handling fee (and you can't get 100LL there, so you need to plan around that).
otoh although you can fly alongside, and sometimes over, SFO with no problem (I do it all the time), landing there is expensive (~$250 I think) so I've never done it. (Also since my home airport
is only 25 miles from it, I've never had any reason to).
n5296s
It is *really* cool taxiing among all the 747s etc at LAX, especially if they land you on the northern runways since the GA terminal is on the south side. I'm pretty sure that both times mine was the only piston aircraft on the whole airport.
It isn't even expensive... the airport doesn't charge, and the FBO charges something like a $40 handling fee (and you can't get 100LL there, so you need to plan around that).
otoh although you can fly alongside, and sometimes over, SFO with no problem (I do it all the time), landing there is expensive (~$250 I think) so I've never done it. (Also since my home airport
is only 25 miles from it, I've never had any reason to).
n5296s
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From: 75N 16E
$40 handling fee
JFK is cheap, but apparently if you land during "peak hours" then you get a $100 surcharge. Wonder if its the same with SFO...?
Cheers
.
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From: Euroland
Alan M,
The Class D to the west looks good.
However, rather than cut off the SW corner making it class G, I would cut it off the London CTR and create a Class E CTR for Farnborough that takes up that airspace.
Regards,
DFC
The Class D to the west looks good.
However, rather than cut off the SW corner making it class G, I would cut it off the London CTR and create a Class E CTR for Farnborough that takes up that airspace.
Regards,
DFC
Why do it if it's not fun?
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From: Bournemouth
and it is a requirement that Class D VFR flights are in ATC contact
FFF
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
I think a route low level is a world apart from one passing 1nm close to departures/go-arounds etc and over the top of inbounds.
Sadly, I doubt any of it will happen..... there are no current plans that I am aware of to downgrade to Class D
Sadly, I doubt any of it will happen..... there are no current plans that I am aware of to downgrade to Class D
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From: Europe
There actually is a plan for Class A and D to disappear in time when the new ECAC 'One Sky' programme kicks in 
. The question is how long it will take for everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet in Europe. Target dates are around 2010.
Here's the simplistic version for Phase 1 (doesn't include Restricted Areas or Temporary Segregated Areas which will cover Danger Areas, etc). I guess it will be for the airspace planners to grasp the nettle then and decide which airspace fits in to which classification.
. The question is how long it will take for everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet in Europe. Target dates are around 2010.Here's the simplistic version for Phase 1 (doesn't include Restricted Areas or Temporary Segregated Areas which will cover Danger Areas, etc). I guess it will be for the airspace planners to grasp the nettle then and decide which airspace fits in to which classification.
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From: Surrey, UK.
And if everything that flies has to have Mode S, why are they saying there will be "U" airspace?
Therefore it is "Unknown" in this context.
As always, AFAIK