Why so much Class A around Heathrow?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why so much Alpha around Heathrow?
Why does the Class A airspace around LHR need to be so big? Take LAX as an example, the you can fly almost up to the runways from the North or South before you enter Class B..........Then you just call on the radio and get a transit overhead at 2500' anyway?
Simply because America is the land of the free and not a land of the regulated. That is why the FAA is an Administration and the CAA is an Authority.
I was once told that if we applied our separation standards to Trafalgar Square then we could accommodate three pigeons in total safety!
I was once told that if we applied our separation standards to Trafalgar Square then we could accommodate three pigeons in total safety!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah but pidgeons fly VFR! Class A is IFR only 
The whole lot should be Class C.
But it's a whole different attitude in the UK. Even just across the water from here, in traffic as busy as the LTMA, one can fly VFR right through (usually below but occassionally above) the IFR airliner traffic, in Class D/C, at say 5000ft. Talking to the same IFR controllers (e.g. Brussels Approach) which they are talking to. But here in the UK, there's no chance of getting a service under VFR from London Control. They deal only with IFR traffic on IFR flight plans.
The whole lot should be Class C.
But it's a whole different attitude in the UK. Even just across the water from here, in traffic as busy as the LTMA, one can fly VFR right through (usually below but occassionally above) the IFR airliner traffic, in Class D/C, at say 5000ft. Talking to the same IFR controllers (e.g. Brussels Approach) which they are talking to. But here in the UK, there's no chance of getting a service under VFR from London Control. They deal only with IFR traffic on IFR flight plans.
Not true; my father kept pigeons and all of the experienced birds that were allowed to go cross country had EPIRs (Experienced Pigeon Instrument Ratings). They were, of course, banned from entering Class A airspace by the CAA but I have seen them land frequently in the Loft in Cat II conditions.
They were capable of doing CAT IIIB landings but we could only afford one candle.
They were capable of doing CAT IIIB landings but we could only afford one candle.
One of my most "stimulating" moments as a humble PPL has been taking a 172 VFR through the overhead of KSFO (San Fransisco Int'l) at 2000' - with all 4 runways in use underneath me (parallel departures and arrivals), so EGLL could never be so impressive!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps some of you here should take the time to visit several ATC units including TC operations room at West Drayton and see just how busy everyone is. You may then get a glimpse at to exactly why you do not get a service through that airspace.
I don't care how they do it in the USA this is how we do it in the UK, with an extremely high safety record and just ask the airline pilots how relieved they feel to be back talking to "London " ATCOs.
There is no way Heathrow should be anything other than the classification it is, try working it then you may get some comprehension on the topic.
I don't care how they do it in the USA this is how we do it in the UK, with an extremely high safety record and just ask the airline pilots how relieved they feel to be back talking to "London " ATCOs.
There is no way Heathrow should be anything other than the classification it is, try working it then you may get some comprehension on the topic.
Spicy Meatball
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liverpool UK
Age: 41
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't care how they do it in the USA this is how we do it in the UK, with an extremely high safety record and just ask the airline pilots how relieved they feel to be back talking to "London " ATCOs.
English - I have seen LAX like that loads of times, but it's only ever been on my PC monitor on flight sim
I shall dream on (thanks for the pics).Maz
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't care how they do it in the USA this is how we do it in the UK, with an extremely high safety record and just ask the airline pilots how relieved they feel to be back talking to "London " ATCOs
Out of interest, how many big jets fly just north or south of the LHR runways at 1000'......just curious? I suggest that the reason this piece of airspace is A is becasue "PPLs can't be trusted" rather than any other reason.
Flower,
Please don't take my recollections as any sort of comment against UK ATC, which is the best in the World. Of course.
Airspace category decisons are made by the CAA, as AlanM has already pointed out.
I am more than aware of the pressures on UK air traffickers and have seen the wonderful job you all do during visits to the TC Ops Room, the D&D Cell, EGLL Tower, EGLF LARS/Tower and Swanwick over the last few years (although that one was on a winters evening and it seemed a bit sleepy )
Please don't take my recollections as any sort of comment against UK ATC, which is the best in the World. Of course.
Airspace category decisons are made by the CAA, as AlanM has already pointed out.
I am more than aware of the pressures on UK air traffickers and have seen the wonderful job you all do during visits to the TC Ops Room, the D&D Cell, EGLL Tower, EGLF LARS/Tower and Swanwick over the last few years (although that one was on a winters evening and it seemed a bit sleepy
)
Last edited by Wycombe; 7th Nov 2005 at 22:52.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was on top of a cliff the other day, surrounded by cloud, and hawks were flying in and out of the IMC. Nearest Class A was about 2nm away so I guess they were fine. I wonder how they do it?
flower, you might be able to impress some people with your 'we are Heathrow and have nothing to learn', but it doesn't work with me
If you work hard then I suspect you are undermanned, not because you do anything more special than they safely do in the US.
englishal, agree with your sentiments, but the LAX surface area has some degree of protection laterally from Hawthorne and Santa Monica. Doesn't matter though, as you have shown very nice pictures of the VFR corridor above which lets you penetrate the class B without bothering any controller. I guess they trust you more there, but LAX doesn't get in the way of VFR light traffic which is the whole point.
Take a look at PHX which is significantly busier than LHR. The surface area there extends about 4nm laterally from the runways, and about 6nm on the extended centreline. It's not that much more in the way than a class D. PHX has roughly 135 square nm of 'positively' controlled surface area, and if it gets in your way you can call up and safely transit it over the approach end of the runways VFR. Rough measurements of the LHR surface area has it extending 8nm laterally, and 12 along the extended centerline. LHR has close to triple the surface area of PHX. For a less busy airport, that is an airspace grab. Make it ICAO class C, or like a US Class B.
flower, you might be able to impress some people with your 'we are Heathrow and have nothing to learn', but it doesn't work with me
If you work hard then I suspect you are undermanned, not because you do anything more special than they safely do in the US.englishal, agree with your sentiments, but the LAX surface area has some degree of protection laterally from Hawthorne and Santa Monica. Doesn't matter though, as you have shown very nice pictures of the VFR corridor above which lets you penetrate the class B without bothering any controller. I guess they trust you more there, but LAX doesn't get in the way of VFR light traffic which is the whole point.
Take a look at PHX which is significantly busier than LHR. The surface area there extends about 4nm laterally from the runways, and about 6nm on the extended centreline. It's not that much more in the way than a class D. PHX has roughly 135 square nm of 'positively' controlled surface area, and if it gets in your way you can call up and safely transit it over the approach end of the runways VFR. Rough measurements of the LHR surface area has it extending 8nm laterally, and 12 along the extended centerline. LHR has close to triple the surface area of PHX. For a less busy airport, that is an airspace grab. Make it ICAO class C, or like a US Class B.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't think for one moment the EGLL ATCOs say they have nothing to learn, they are utterly superb at what they do. Have a look at their airspace though and tell me where you will fit these VFR aircraft. SVFR radar is already available to allow transit of the EGLL zone in specific areas.
We have limited space compared to the US, if we could scrap everything and start again then maybe a better design of airspace would ensue. As it is there is no way with the sheer volume of traffic and the relatively small airspace they have to deal with that the could accommodate a bimbler.
We have limited space compared to the US, if we could scrap everything and start again then maybe a better design of airspace would ensue. As it is there is no way with the sheer volume of traffic and the relatively small airspace they have to deal with that the could accommodate a bimbler.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the VFR corridor above which lets you penetrate the class B without bothering any controller
There is why one can over-fly LAX. Try asking them for a random routing that conflicts with either their arrivals or departures.
To be fair, Heathrow give lots of corner cutting short cuts and allow lots of hellis etc operate within the zone. Lots more than some units in Class D.
If anyone whats to try then sketch the SIDS and Approach procedures from the AIP onto a map and then tell us where you would put the VFR corridor. I would be very interested!
Regards,
DFC
There is why one can over-fly LAX. Try asking them for a random routing that conflicts with either their arrivals or departures.
To be fair, Heathrow give lots of corner cutting short cuts and allow lots of hellis etc operate within the zone. Lots more than some units in Class D.
If anyone whats to try then sketch the SIDS and Approach procedures from the AIP onto a map and then tell us where you would put the VFR corridor. I would be very interested!
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: TUOP
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly,
"I don't care how they do it in the USA "
seems to be the prevalent attitude amongst those who have expropriated control of the airspace over the UK.
Any informed observer has to accept that the environment is different here. But if the powers that be promote the idea that there is nothing to be learnt from elsewhere, then nothing will be learnt.
The lesson that should be taught is that airspace is a common resource, It belongs to everyone, not just BA et al. AOPA in the US do the political lobbying to this effect, very effectively it would seem.
As ever, when Government is involved, money talks.
"I don't care how they do it in the USA "
seems to be the prevalent attitude amongst those who have expropriated control of the airspace over the UK.
Any informed observer has to accept that the environment is different here. But if the powers that be promote the idea that there is nothing to be learnt from elsewhere, then nothing will be learnt.
The lesson that should be taught is that airspace is a common resource, It belongs to everyone, not just BA et al. AOPA in the US do the political lobbying to this effect, very effectively it would seem.
As ever, when Government is involved, money talks.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is why one can over-fly LAX. Try asking them for a random routing that conflicts with either their arrivals or departures.
There are three ways to get over LAX now:
1) Shoreline / Hollywood park routes. ATC clearance required by Socal
2) LAX Mini Route. ATC clearance required direct from LAX tower
3) Special Flight Rules area. No ATC clearance required so long as you conform to their requirements (Sqwark 1201, less than 140kts, lights on etc......)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flower, airspace starts at the ground and goes up into the sky in exactly the same way in both the US and UK. Neither has less airspace than the other. If what you mean to say is urban airport density is greater in one of them, and there is more urban air traffic in one of them I'd agree with you. That would be the in the States.
DFC,
There is why one can over-fly LAX. Try asking them for a random routing that conflicts with either their arrivals or departures.
You try asking for a that random routing when flying IFR into LHR. In my experience US Class B controllers will approve any routing that doesn't make them have to move the heavy iron. Fair enough. Some VFR routes are published to make it easier for all, just like DPs and STARS are published for the IFR world. You might get 'remain clear' from Chicago Approach, but that place is special.
Why is the LHR surface area three times the PHX area?
DFC,
There is why one can over-fly LAX. Try asking them for a random routing that conflicts with either their arrivals or departures.
You try asking for a that random routing when flying IFR into LHR. In my experience US Class B controllers will approve any routing that doesn't make them have to move the heavy iron. Fair enough. Some VFR routes are published to make it easier for all, just like DPs and STARS are published for the IFR world. You might get 'remain clear' from Chicago Approach, but that place is special.
Why is the LHR surface area three times the PHX area?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is the LHR surface area three times the PHX area?
Could the size of LHR airspace be due the need to maintain IFR separtation in the event of a go around? I gather all hell breaks loose if someone goes around at Heathrow.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it because everyone flys so close to the zone boundary?
Must be the airline pilots not following the ILS
Could the size of LHR airspace be due the need to maintain IFR separtation in the event of a go around?
I am guessing the airspace has to allow separation between IFR traffic climbing with one engine out within the controlled airspace, and traffic flying just below the floor of the controlled airspace. So, is the suggestion that LHR needs an extra 200 square miles or surface area to do this, and PHX wasn't designed with this in mind? Americans have a superb reputation in the aviation field, it would surprise me that they didn't think of this. They do use a different method (TERPS vs PANOPS I think) and in a two horse race one must be better than the other.
I gather all hell breaks loose if someone goes around at Heathrow.
Careful what you say, if it is true that all hell breaks loose, it must be the best way in the world to do it
Must be the airline pilots not following the ILS
Could the size of LHR airspace be due the need to maintain IFR separtation in the event of a go around?
I am guessing the airspace has to allow separation between IFR traffic climbing with one engine out within the controlled airspace, and traffic flying just below the floor of the controlled airspace. So, is the suggestion that LHR needs an extra 200 square miles or surface area to do this, and PHX wasn't designed with this in mind? Americans have a superb reputation in the aviation field, it would surprise me that they didn't think of this. They do use a different method (TERPS vs PANOPS I think) and in a two horse race one must be better than the other.
I gather all hell breaks loose if someone goes around at Heathrow.
Careful what you say, if it is true that all hell breaks loose, it must be the best way in the world to do it
Last edited by slim_slag; 7th Nov 2005 at 14:40.
An interesting thread. The one thing that has not been discussed is weather. In the States they have lots of VMC which allows VFR flight. The one thing you can guarantee in the UK is naff weather. When procedures are being designed in the UK, the weather and and its effects are of major concern. Watch what happens in the US when they have dodgy Wx. They tend to operate very much as we do. Controllers do their best either side of the pond.