IMC Rating
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,401
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Good comment, Keef! Agree with you 100%.
From a retired military pilot - certainly not an Air Marshal - who is entirely happy with the UK IMC Rating.
In any case, after a career of flying down to the limits 99% of the time manually, I have no intention of operating my little SEP aircraft down to 200 ft DH on nasty days. These days I go flying/instructing/examining for pleasure, not pain! But my JAR-FCL ATPL does not have the earlier 'automatic IMC' privileges of the old UK ATPL, so I do have to fly an IMC revalidation test every couple of years.
From a retired military pilot - certainly not an Air Marshal - who is entirely happy with the UK IMC Rating.
In any case, after a career of flying down to the limits 99% of the time manually, I have no intention of operating my little SEP aircraft down to 200 ft DH on nasty days. These days I go flying/instructing/examining for pleasure, not pain! But my JAR-FCL ATPL does not have the earlier 'automatic IMC' privileges of the old UK ATPL, so I do have to fly an IMC revalidation test every couple of years.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
A real airways flight, usually ends up with a "go direct to......" So yes an approved IFR GPS fit is very useful, actually two of our current and one of our new machines do have this facility. At last!!
Mind you I've ended up using a Garmin Pilot III for getting around Europe in a commercial airliner......
I think the least said about that company the better!
At least my type rating and IR keeps my IMC valid.
Mind you I've ended up using a Garmin Pilot III for getting around Europe in a commercial airliner......
I think the least said about that company the better!At least my type rating and IR keeps my IMC valid.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
I have no intention of operating my little SEP aircraft down to 200 ft DH on nasty days
Can you legally on an IMC go down to 200ft DH there is no mention in the ANO of the IMC limits but you get mixed replys from FIE's if you can go below the recommend DH for IMC holders.
The bit I am scared about is someone with the wife and kids on board who is not very current doing an IFR sector + recovery on the hoof. The additional work load is huge and certainly by any strech of the imagination can't be classed as good fun. A IMC holder who looks at the wx and see's that possibility of requiring a IFR recovery and thinks well i want to get back. Sod it and plans the whole trip IFR properly. I think has got the spirit of what the IMCR is all about. Not the people who plan a trip VFR and then have use the IMC to get you home by hook and crook.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
Personally I find flying IFR to be an awful lot easier and always try to plan long trips IFR and if I can get VFR, then all the better.
I think M_J's comment about planning properly in the first place is absolutely right. IFR flying is not an on the hoof thing. You must make sure you have the right a/c, equipment (in date plates etc.) and are able to actually fly in IMC safely. If you are caught out, then always have your backup plan. If that means changing to IFR, then do it, but you should have thought about it before you even got out to the a/c in the first place.
Always have an exit in flying, never put yourself into any situations where you only have one option. You may just live a bit longer.
I think M_J's comment about planning properly in the first place is absolutely right. IFR flying is not an on the hoof thing. You must make sure you have the right a/c, equipment (in date plates etc.) and are able to actually fly in IMC safely. If you are caught out, then always have your backup plan. If that means changing to IFR, then do it, but you should have thought about it before you even got out to the a/c in the first place.
Always have an exit in flying, never put yourself into any situations where you only have one option. You may just live a bit longer.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Can you legally on an IMC go down to 200ft DH there is no mention in the ANO of the IMC limits but you get mixed replys from FIE's if you can go below the recommend DH for IMC holders
The reduced vis minima for the IMC rating, on the other hand (1800m for take-off and landing) are law.
FFF
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
MJ,
I agree completely that the IMC is and should be about proper pre planned IFR flight not a get out of jail card. There are a significant number of hours flown safely by people using this method including myself and people like IO540.
there is no reason for a CURRENT IMC pilot not to fly any aproach to minima. When I did my IMC training all my flights were to minima taught by a current IR Instructor.
The only reason I entered the IR route was having access to a high speed deiced twin and wanting to fly the airways on my own priveledge rather than someone else's.
55hrs on an IR is a really long time to fill with nothing for an experianced IMC pilot despite what the "IR elite" may tell you.
"my badge was harder to get so it must be better........."
I agree completely that the IMC is and should be about proper pre planned IFR flight not a get out of jail card. There are a significant number of hours flown safely by people using this method including myself and people like IO540.
there is no reason for a CURRENT IMC pilot not to fly any aproach to minima. When I did my IMC training all my flights were to minima taught by a current IR Instructor.
The only reason I entered the IR route was having access to a high speed deiced twin and wanting to fly the airways on my own priveledge rather than someone else's.
55hrs on an IR is a really long time to fill with nothing for an experianced IMC pilot despite what the "IR elite" may tell you.
"my badge was harder to get so it must be better........."
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
IFR is easier than VFR, IFR in controlled airspace is even easier. As long as its preplanned. Single pilot no autopilot ain't the place to be mucking about trying to find plates and constructing a IFR plog on the hoof.
The plates issue is never ending in my experence.
The whole process of keeping the documentation legal for a IFR flight legal is a bloody nightmare with updates etc.
If its a school aircraft and they are provided. Always check that the ones you want are actually there. Sod law states that someone will have forgotten to replace them after using them. And this not only happens in SEPs, I can assure you that everyday somewhere in the UK a base captain is having a witch hunt to trying find a set of missing plates which are on someones kneeboard.
The AIS website is a brillant resource so it doesn't need to cost a fortune getting and keeping up to date your own set for your homebase + div. Which is the most likely ones you will want to press onto. And if you have them on board anyway it allows you to skip the queue in front of the other VFR traffic by asking for a IFR recovery. At Leeds I used to save at least 10mins when it was busy by not having to join the circuit queue and get slotted in between the IFR inbounds. All for 6 quid.
Edited to add.
Personally I think the IR has a little bit more behind it than meets the eye. It is the last point that the CAA has total control over your training. Not only is it a check on your ability to fly on Instruments but is also a proffesional check. I know its not billed as that. But they do take a look at the over all picture of the pilot gawd help you if you turn up in a pair of jeans and a T-shirt. Its the last fence before you can realistically carry fare paying pax for a commercial pilot. Unfortunatly the PPL world suffer because of this. BTW 55 hours is way low for what the rating actually lets you do. As my IR examiner said before handing over the cert. "This bit of paper allows you to fly into Heathrow single pilot rekon you up for it?" My answer was "No i think i need a bit more experence before trying that thanks". He then said "correct reply" signed the cert and walked off. And you may be experenced instrument pilot and I have no doudt are safe. Unfortunatly some experenced FAA instrument pilots do struggle to up there game to the intial pass. A combination of RT, reduced tolerances the anal retentive attention to detail. Which has to all be maintained for a 2.5 hour flight. The IR renewal test is a breeze compared to the first one.
The plates issue is never ending in my experence.
The whole process of keeping the documentation legal for a IFR flight legal is a bloody nightmare with updates etc.
If its a school aircraft and they are provided. Always check that the ones you want are actually there. Sod law states that someone will have forgotten to replace them after using them. And this not only happens in SEPs, I can assure you that everyday somewhere in the UK a base captain is having a witch hunt to trying find a set of missing plates which are on someones kneeboard.
The AIS website is a brillant resource so it doesn't need to cost a fortune getting and keeping up to date your own set for your homebase + div. Which is the most likely ones you will want to press onto. And if you have them on board anyway it allows you to skip the queue in front of the other VFR traffic by asking for a IFR recovery. At Leeds I used to save at least 10mins when it was busy by not having to join the circuit queue and get slotted in between the IFR inbounds. All for 6 quid.
Edited to add.
Personally I think the IR has a little bit more behind it than meets the eye. It is the last point that the CAA has total control over your training. Not only is it a check on your ability to fly on Instruments but is also a proffesional check. I know its not billed as that. But they do take a look at the over all picture of the pilot gawd help you if you turn up in a pair of jeans and a T-shirt. Its the last fence before you can realistically carry fare paying pax for a commercial pilot. Unfortunatly the PPL world suffer because of this. BTW 55 hours is way low for what the rating actually lets you do. As my IR examiner said before handing over the cert. "This bit of paper allows you to fly into Heathrow single pilot rekon you up for it?" My answer was "No i think i need a bit more experence before trying that thanks". He then said "correct reply" signed the cert and walked off. And you may be experenced instrument pilot and I have no doudt are safe. Unfortunatly some experenced FAA instrument pilots do struggle to up there game to the intial pass. A combination of RT, reduced tolerances the anal retentive attention to detail. Which has to all be maintained for a 2.5 hour flight. The IR renewal test is a breeze compared to the first one.
Last edited by mad_jock; 25th October 2005 at 12:02.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
"No i think i need a bit more experence before trying that thanks". He then said "correct reply""
I know this is being pedantic but why on earth didn't he teach you to fly into Heathrow? It's just another airport, just another runway. You get an RV ILS. You can read the plates, the countless SID/STAR diagrams at your leisure beforehand.
You will need your credit card, of course
I've never landed there but I bet that making the arrangements for a piston plane to arrive and get avgas will take a lot longer than planning and executing the flight from elsewhere in the UK.
You had 50 (or 55 if ME) hrs in which to do some nice real IFR flights. That's plenty enough time under the hood to completely do your head in. Or, if done in real IMC at FL120, plenty long enough to get totally iced up. Real flight planning, stuffing routes into the CFMU website until it accepts it, and at the other end sorting out fuel, haggling with the BP man to get a "commercial" rate, paying the other bills, all the "real world" stuff.
That psychology reflects the JAA IR system. It is designed for airline pilots, who won't be flying anywhere at all for quite a while yet. It's just a piece of paper, not intended to be useful for FLYING. The typical holder won't ever be getting weather via various websites, filing flight plans, or trying to get refuelled at some far away airport where nobody speaks English. He doesn't need to know that.
A private owner-pilot would feel ripped off, having paid all that money, more importantly spent all that time (time spent flying plus much much more time, a year or two, swatting for the JAA IR exams) and not be able to get into his shiny new IFR plane and do an airways flights from the UK to any European airport within range. Down to minima if necessary. THAT is what private pilots want, need, and that's why they do the FAA IR. A lot of them fly around Europe accompanied by a CFII, doing real trips.
I know this is being pedantic but why on earth didn't he teach you to fly into Heathrow? It's just another airport, just another runway. You get an RV ILS. You can read the plates, the countless SID/STAR diagrams at your leisure beforehand.
You will need your credit card, of course
I've never landed there but I bet that making the arrangements for a piston plane to arrive and get avgas will take a lot longer than planning and executing the flight from elsewhere in the UK.You had 50 (or 55 if ME) hrs in which to do some nice real IFR flights. That's plenty enough time under the hood to completely do your head in. Or, if done in real IMC at FL120, plenty long enough to get totally iced up. Real flight planning, stuffing routes into the CFMU website until it accepts it, and at the other end sorting out fuel, haggling with the BP man to get a "commercial" rate, paying the other bills, all the "real world" stuff.
That psychology reflects the JAA IR system. It is designed for airline pilots, who won't be flying anywhere at all for quite a while yet. It's just a piece of paper, not intended to be useful for FLYING. The typical holder won't ever be getting weather via various websites, filing flight plans, or trying to get refuelled at some far away airport where nobody speaks English. He doesn't need to know that.
A private owner-pilot would feel ripped off, having paid all that money, more importantly spent all that time (time spent flying plus much much more time, a year or two, swatting for the JAA IR exams) and not be able to get into his shiny new IFR plane and do an airways flights from the UK to any European airport within range. Down to minima if necessary. THAT is what private pilots want, need, and that's why they do the FAA IR. A lot of them fly around Europe accompanied by a CFII, doing real trips.
