Can men and women ever be co-pilots?
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Can men and women ever be co-pilots?
My wife recently got her PPL and we now tour together, including a mammoth recent trip to Spain. It has been interesting to see how the male/female stereotypes emerge in the cockpit, for example:[list=1][*]when unsure of position she wants to ask someone, whereas I will blunder around for ages before admitting I'm lost[*]the non-handling pilot is now designated as "BSF1" (Back Seat Flyer 1)[*]when she's being helpful there are about 4 mental steps to get from what she says to what she means[*]ATC are much nicer when she's doing the radio, and we never encounter any problems with fuel/customs/immigration[*] during long legs (down, boy!) I alleviate boredom by tracking down every last possible function of the GPS, whereas she wants to know what I'm thinking about[/list=1]
I was writing up the Spain trip for submission to one of the GA magazines when I realised that the husband/wife routine was potentially more interesting.
Any other flying couples out there who would like to share their experiences?
There is a very lively thread on the CRM forum about mixed commercial crews....
I was writing up the Spain trip for submission to one of the GA magazines when I realised that the husband/wife routine was potentially more interesting.
Any other flying couples out there who would like to share their experiences?
There is a very lively thread on the CRM forum about mixed commercial crews....
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We flew to Gerona in Costa Brava and stayed in a little coastal village called Llafranc. Have to say it was a great way to get there, particularly hopping over the channel watching all the families packed into their volvos on the ro-ro ferries below.
Couldn't believe how accessible Gerona was - 5 euros to land and park for a week and a runway so big my wife nearly landed on a taxiway by mistake!
Couldn't believe how accessible Gerona was - 5 euros to land and park for a week and a runway so big my wife nearly landed on a taxiway by mistake!
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The interesting scenario is when one of the couple is VFR, the other is IFR qualified. When it gets murky one goes down towards the ground, the other insists on climbing to get away from it!
I think in our house the score is 3-1 in favour of the IFR technique
I think in our house the score is 3-1 in favour of the IFR technique
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I've only taken my wife flying a couple of times in nearly 15 years of marriage. She's not a pilot and doesn't like the fact that I'm suddenly in charge and not her as is the norm! 
SS
SS
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I've never flown with a woman with whom I was having a relationship and who has a pilot's licence, but I would say that one should behave just as if flying with another pilot.
And how should that be?
In a single crew cockpit, only one person should be doing the flying - unless specifically agreed beforehand. This business of back seat driving has no place in a plane. Sorry to be pedantic!
I do occassionally let a colleague fly my plane (and let him log it - it is all insured etc for that) and I just sit there and fold my arms, occassionally go to sleep. It's really nice to BE flown, for a change. If he gets a problem, he can always wake me up.
Obviously (when awake) I watch everything, especially when he's doing an IAP. But unless he's actually messed up (e.g. is about to shoot straight through the localiser) I stay quiet.
Some instructors interfere all the time, and drive the PUT right up the wall. It's easy to do that to another PPL too. You can drive a 1000 hour pilot (who would normally be perfectly fine on his.her own) up the wall, by interference. The best instructors say and do very little. A co-pilot should do the same.
As for being unsure of position and having to ask.... well you know what I'd say about solving that one
And how should that be?
In a single crew cockpit, only one person should be doing the flying - unless specifically agreed beforehand. This business of back seat driving has no place in a plane. Sorry to be pedantic!
I do occassionally let a colleague fly my plane (and let him log it - it is all insured etc for that) and I just sit there and fold my arms, occassionally go to sleep. It's really nice to BE flown, for a change. If he gets a problem, he can always wake me up.
Obviously (when awake) I watch everything, especially when he's doing an IAP. But unless he's actually messed up (e.g. is about to shoot straight through the localiser) I stay quiet.
Some instructors interfere all the time, and drive the PUT right up the wall. It's easy to do that to another PPL too. You can drive a 1000 hour pilot (who would normally be perfectly fine on his.her own) up the wall, by interference. The best instructors say and do very little. A co-pilot should do the same.
As for being unsure of position and having to ask.... well you know what I'd say about solving that one
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Doesn't sound like you're married either, quite frankly I0540!
The 'who's in charge' question is an interesting one - does 'honour and obey' override P1 status?
I do suspect that married couples interact quite differently from, say, two friends flying together - particularly during an emergency.
The 'who's in charge' question is an interesting one - does 'honour and obey' override P1 status?
I do suspect that married couples interact quite differently from, say, two friends flying together - particularly during an emergency.
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As a heli instructor and pilot teaching female students is normaly a rare treat as most don't bring their egos into the cockpit and normaly do what their are told, however they thing with females pilots is they always want to know why and want exept things on faith so in that regard they keep you on your toes.
Give me young female students over the fat middle aged men any day.
Give me young female students over the fat middle aged men any day.
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Well I actually taught my wife to fly!
Generally there was no problems, but there were times that I pointed out that I would have said the same to another student but any other student certainly would not have said what she said to me
Generally there was no problems, but there were times that I pointed out that I would have said the same to another student but any other student certainly would not have said what she said to me
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Doesn't sound like you're married either, quite frankly I0540!
I fly with my girlfriend a lot; done trips to the far reaches of European avgas availability and legs up to 6 hours. If she was PIC, I would treat her the same way as I treat any other competent pilot in a single crew cockpit. Leave her alone to do the flying, help out if asked, or if necessary.
She doesn't have a PPL but I am going through the basics of what is often sold as a "co-pilot course" with her.
RESPECT is the key word.
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He has about ten times the hours that I have and single-pilot IFR is his bread-and-butter. Part of a team, he ain't!
Over the years we have come to a very workable arrangement of who does what when he's PIC.............I am expected to look after the charts, plates, times and fuel state. When the autopilot is flying we both keep an eye on the gauges and position. If the autopilot breaks then I am expected to take my turn at straight-and-level. He is comfortable enough to grab forty winks and leave me "in charge". In an emergency I grab the book, find the pages needed and read the right bits aloud - he flies.
If I am PIC (generally only when flying my own aircraft) he tries to sit back and shut up. Until recently I didn't have an intercom, so I could just unplug him and get on with it!
Over the years we have come to a very workable arrangement of who does what when he's PIC.............I am expected to look after the charts, plates, times and fuel state. When the autopilot is flying we both keep an eye on the gauges and position. If the autopilot breaks then I am expected to take my turn at straight-and-level. He is comfortable enough to grab forty winks and leave me "in charge". In an emergency I grab the book, find the pages needed and read the right bits aloud - he flies.
If I am PIC (generally only when flying my own aircraft) he tries to sit back and shut up. Until recently I didn't have an intercom, so I could just unplug him and get on with it!
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but there were times that I pointed out that I would have said the same to another student but any other student certainly would not have said what she said to me
SS
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I'm not married, but I have flown with both male and female co-pilots quite often. I can't honestly say I've noticed any consistent differences.
However, what seems to be coming across on this thread is that if you fly with someone you know well or have any sort of relationship with, habitual ways of responding to each other seem to be carried over into behaviour in the cockpit. I suspect this would happen with husband and wife, parent and child, teacher and pupil (not necessarily flying instructor), boss and employee, etc etc.
I remember taking my elderly mother for a scenic drive in North Wales, along a windy narrow road with a sheer drop on one side. She kept telling me what a good driver I was. She said it as though I was a 10-year old child...but she tended to treat me that way till the day she died. Now, I don't know for certain of course, but I suspect if she'd had a pilot's licence for years, and I'd recently got one, she'd have complimented me on my landings in the same way!
Is this so surprising? After all, flying with a co-pilot is about relationships with other people...and why should they change just because we're at 2000 ft?
However, what seems to be coming across on this thread is that if you fly with someone you know well or have any sort of relationship with, habitual ways of responding to each other seem to be carried over into behaviour in the cockpit. I suspect this would happen with husband and wife, parent and child, teacher and pupil (not necessarily flying instructor), boss and employee, etc etc.
I remember taking my elderly mother for a scenic drive in North Wales, along a windy narrow road with a sheer drop on one side. She kept telling me what a good driver I was. She said it as though I was a 10-year old child...but she tended to treat me that way till the day she died. Now, I don't know for certain of course, but I suspect if she'd had a pilot's licence for years, and I'd recently got one, she'd have complimented me on my landings in the same way!
Is this so surprising? After all, flying with a co-pilot is about relationships with other people...and why should they change just because we're at 2000 ft?
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Unfortunately we are no longer together, but my partner and I used to fly together a lot. I would say that there is a big difference between flying with a fellow pilot and flying with someone you know intimately ( 
intimately as in the way they think and are likely to react to situations).
Where something may need to be clarified with words when flying with a fellow pilot, there were many occasions where a glance would tell me exactly what she was thinking and vice versa. This is particularly helpful when the P1 is under pressure, as a deeper understanding of each other, enables swifter solutions.
Even when flying under no pressure, I didn't have to ask for something, she always had it ready. She was very good at navigating and would for example, automatically have frequencies ready for me at the right time, just as I was about to ask for them. Plus a multitude of other examples, but at the end of the day it made flying so much more pleasurable when we knew what the other was thinking. More time to look out the window and revel in the view.
intimately as in the way they think and are likely to react to situations).Where something may need to be clarified with words when flying with a fellow pilot, there were many occasions where a glance would tell me exactly what she was thinking and vice versa. This is particularly helpful when the P1 is under pressure, as a deeper understanding of each other, enables swifter solutions.
Even when flying under no pressure, I didn't have to ask for something, she always had it ready. She was very good at navigating and would for example, automatically have frequencies ready for me at the right time, just as I was about to ask for them. Plus a multitude of other examples, but at the end of the day it made flying so much more pleasurable when we knew what the other was thinking. More time to look out the window and revel in the view.
