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Good Post, lots of valuable info.
Some more food for thought.
Judging how busy an ATC unit is based solely on the frequency you are using can't be relied upon. The ATCO concerned may have a whole host of other frequencies and tasks going on, that you will not always be aware of.
Those nice people at London Information (124.6 / 124.75) might have been able to help, but granted, they do get very busy frequency wise.
There's also D&D, on 121.5. They're not just there for emergencies. Indeed, given that they would untimately been invovled if Shoreham had started overdue action on Gengis, they'd probably appreciate the call to let Shoreham know.
(Easy on the ground isn't it? Not sure I'd have been able to think it through in the air)
Rgds BEX
Some more food for thought.
Being told by Solent (who, relatively speaking, were not busy)
Those nice people at London Information (124.6 / 124.75) might have been able to help, but granted, they do get very busy frequency wise.
There's also D&D, on 121.5. They're not just there for emergencies. Indeed, given that they would untimately been invovled if Shoreham had started overdue action on Gengis, they'd probably appreciate the call to let Shoreham know.
(Easy on the ground isn't it? Not sure I'd have been able to think it through in the air)
Rgds BEX
.....less necessary because they can see the squawk change from 0234 or whatever to 7000 so they know you have moved on
Even if the right code is eventually entered it is annoying to see various numbers/callsigns pop up as the pilot trawls through the numbers.
Of course this can happen even if the intention to QSY had been acknowledged.
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An interesting and good account.
Without intending to detract at all from the spirit in which your account was written I think Foxmouth makes a good point.
With hindsight it is easy to say, but with zones like solent if you dont get the clearance you are expecting it is well worth having an avoid plan up your sleeve which then becomes second nature even if you are still worrying about an earlier problem. With solent for example their are several ways around or through the zone which do not require a clearance.
Also it is worth looking around for smaller airports that are often not as busy and more likely to take on the repsonsibility of signing you off with the earlier unit. In this case what about Goodwood Chichester that are always worth a call for a FIS when routing along the coast.
Finally, and happy to be corrected, but because an aircraft does not sign off with a unit and given the unit has no obvious reason to believe a problem has occurred I cant imagine a SAR action is a high priority for them so their is plenty of time on your side to ask another unit along the route to pass the message - any will do.
Without intending to detract at all from the spirit in which your account was written I think Foxmouth makes a good point.
With hindsight it is easy to say, but with zones like solent if you dont get the clearance you are expecting it is well worth having an avoid plan up your sleeve which then becomes second nature even if you are still worrying about an earlier problem. With solent for example their are several ways around or through the zone which do not require a clearance.
Also it is worth looking around for smaller airports that are often not as busy and more likely to take on the repsonsibility of signing you off with the earlier unit. In this case what about Goodwood Chichester that are always worth a call for a FIS when routing along the coast.
Finally, and happy to be corrected, but because an aircraft does not sign off with a unit and given the unit has no obvious reason to believe a problem has occurred I cant imagine a SAR action is a high priority for them so their is plenty of time on your side to ask another unit along the route to pass the message - any will do.
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Thread Starter
Three points:-
(1) I wasn't asking for a clearance, only for a FIS.
(2) Solent was less busy that Shoreham, insofar as the RT was quiet enough to speak to them.
(3) My route took me within a mile of Solent's airspace, and nowhere near Goodwood. In that context, speaking to anybody but Solent wouldn't have made much sense.
On Foxmouth's more detailed point, I elected to change at Selsey Bill, when I was close enough to be an issue to Solent, not "just past Shoreham". My routing was then inland, on a direct track to Popham, not along the Solent.
G
(1) I wasn't asking for a clearance, only for a FIS.
(2) Solent was less busy that Shoreham, insofar as the RT was quiet enough to speak to them.
(3) My route took me within a mile of Solent's airspace, and nowhere near Goodwood. In that context, speaking to anybody but Solent wouldn't have made much sense.
On Foxmouth's more detailed point, I elected to change at Selsey Bill, when I was close enough to be an issue to Solent, not "just past Shoreham". My routing was then inland, on a direct track to Popham, not along the Solent.
G
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Genghis
(1) I see and having had a look at your route there was no reason too.
(2) Agreed, but with hindsight most commercial control zones (perhaps sadly) are less inclined to do "jobs" on the land line for us GA pilots. I am not sure I completely agree with my own point as I personally have always found Solent really helpful but I know that is not everyones experience.
(3) I suppose it depends how you use the radio. Personally I am a bit of a radio freak. I feel it does no harm at all to tell the nearest radio what you are doing because any information they can give you might be of help. For example in bound aircraft will probably give them a call from some distance away so that helps build a picture of who is around, they may know of aircraft aerobating in their vicinity and they may know of any temporary restrictions (which yes of course you should have got from the AIS, but might have just "overlooked"). I equally understand that there are others who prefer to avoid speaking to anyone if they possibly can.
If you did go to Selsey or somewhere in that vicinity and then direct Popham you would have routed somewhere around Thorney island. The fact of the matter is solent isnt interest in traffic that far away from them and nor is Shoreham. That is very much the local flying area for Goodwood though. They often have aircraft aerobating over Thorney island and a lot of aircraft routing east along the coast will give Goodwood a call before Shoreham.
So I suppose I am merely say Goodwood might have been worth a call and certainly would have got on the land line for you.
(1) I see and having had a look at your route there was no reason too.
(2) Agreed, but with hindsight most commercial control zones (perhaps sadly) are less inclined to do "jobs" on the land line for us GA pilots. I am not sure I completely agree with my own point as I personally have always found Solent really helpful but I know that is not everyones experience.
(3) I suppose it depends how you use the radio. Personally I am a bit of a radio freak. I feel it does no harm at all to tell the nearest radio what you are doing because any information they can give you might be of help. For example in bound aircraft will probably give them a call from some distance away so that helps build a picture of who is around, they may know of aircraft aerobating in their vicinity and they may know of any temporary restrictions (which yes of course you should have got from the AIS, but might have just "overlooked"). I equally understand that there are others who prefer to avoid speaking to anyone if they possibly can.
If you did go to Selsey or somewhere in that vicinity and then direct Popham you would have routed somewhere around Thorney island. The fact of the matter is solent isnt interest in traffic that far away from them and nor is Shoreham. That is very much the local flying area for Goodwood though. They often have aircraft aerobating over Thorney island and a lot of aircraft routing east along the coast will give Goodwood a call before Shoreham.
So I suppose I am merely say Goodwood might have been worth a call and certainly would have got on the land line for you.
"There's also D&D, on 121.5. They're not just there for emergencies. Indeed, given that they would untimately been invovled if Shoreham had started overdue action on Gengis, they'd probably appreciate the call to let Shoreham know."
Absolutely NOT! Do NOT under ANY circumstances make such a call on 121.5 unless urgency or distress dictates otherwise. The information should have been relayed back to Shoreham via landline -and it was hardly critical in any case.
I use the radio when I need to and obtain the class of service appropriate. If I'm going within a few miles of an aerodrome, I'd probably give that aerodrome a call, however.
The Golf Alfa Good Mornings who clutter up the RT with non-essential RT yak (often including their life history) are irritating beyond belief for both pilots and controllers alike!
Always ask yourself whether your actually NEED to make that call!
Absolutely NOT! Do NOT under ANY circumstances make such a call on 121.5 unless urgency or distress dictates otherwise. The information should have been relayed back to Shoreham via landline -and it was hardly critical in any case.
I use the radio when I need to and obtain the class of service appropriate. If I'm going within a few miles of an aerodrome, I'd probably give that aerodrome a call, however.
The Golf Alfa Good Mornings who clutter up the RT with non-essential RT yak (often including their life history) are irritating beyond belief for both pilots and controllers alike!
Always ask yourself whether your actually NEED to make that call!
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Thread Starter
I think that some of the implied criticism of Solent is getting slightly out of hand here. What I posted was intended as a learning point, not a criticism of anybody (save possbly myself).
Incidentally, as a long term user of Solent Radar, my experience is almost universally positive (I even wrote the SATCO a letter of thanks once). I know some people have had problems with them, but that's been very rarely my experience.
G
Incidentally, as a long term user of Solent Radar, my experience is almost universally positive (I even wrote the SATCO a letter of thanks once). I know some people have had problems with them, but that's been very rarely my experience.
G
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Beagle
"Always ask yourself whether your actually NEED to make that call!"
As I said in an earlier post I know this is a common stance. Your definitions of "need" may even be the same as mine.
However I get the impression that some pilots will avoid asking for a flight information service - and I hope it is still on topic, becasue Genghis may have been reluctant to talk to Goodwood in this case because it was a little way a way.
If I am aerobating over Ford or Thorny Island I will always tell Goodwood. If no one is going to talk to Goodwood my call also becomes a bit pointless! However I bet if your are on frequency you will either hear them passing that information on to other pilots or listen in on my call. The problem is that if everyone only listens Goodwood does not have the opportunity to provide the information.
In my view if a freqeuncy is not too busy a quick call as you pass to ask for a FIS is not pointless yak and adds significantly to reducing the risk of a collision.
"Always ask yourself whether your actually NEED to make that call!"
As I said in an earlier post I know this is a common stance. Your definitions of "need" may even be the same as mine.
However I get the impression that some pilots will avoid asking for a flight information service - and I hope it is still on topic, becasue Genghis may have been reluctant to talk to Goodwood in this case because it was a little way a way.
If I am aerobating over Ford or Thorny Island I will always tell Goodwood. If no one is going to talk to Goodwood my call also becomes a bit pointless! However I bet if your are on frequency you will either hear them passing that information on to other pilots or listen in on my call. The problem is that if everyone only listens Goodwood does not have the opportunity to provide the information.
In my view if a freqeuncy is not too busy a quick call as you pass to ask for a FIS is not pointless yak and adds significantly to reducing the risk of a collision.
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Thanks Genghis
Some valuable points. I’m sorry to see it has rather turned into a “Solent Zone bashing session”
I've flown in and out of Solent Zone all my flying life. I learned to fly at Southampton and my aircraft is based on a strip in the zone.
One thing that no one has mentioned is the action the controller took was entirely appropriate to the event. Ghengis was turned away and no further action was taken. No harm done: lesson learned.
They are unfailingly helpful to me (and always have been).
Solent were equally helpful (and kind) to me when I was returning to Lee on Solent a month ago. Planning to pass outside the zone and not wishing to break in on a very busy frequency I was listening to Solent Radar but had not called them – all the while flying outbound on the 190 radial from CPT instead of the intended 170. A schoolboy mistake I know, but more easily done than you might imagine. Descending rapidly over what had (out of the thick haze) clearly become Winchester, I responded to the call "Any unidentified aircraft working this frequency approximately ten miles to the north of Southampton descending through 2500".
As with Ghengis, I was turned swiftly away and no further action was taken.
I did however once fly in as a passenger a Jet Ranger and the pilot was just a little bit arrogant with them on the radio. We got a "join downwind left for 20, number seven (yes really, number seven) in traffic".
And finally, the pilot who flew into our strip without so much as a phone or radio call to anyone was swiftly traced and invited to have a little chat with the magistrates in Southampton.
So far as I can see, the moral is pretty clear.
Some valuable points. I’m sorry to see it has rather turned into a “Solent Zone bashing session”
I've flown in and out of Solent Zone all my flying life. I learned to fly at Southampton and my aircraft is based on a strip in the zone.
One thing that no one has mentioned is the action the controller took was entirely appropriate to the event. Ghengis was turned away and no further action was taken. No harm done: lesson learned.
They are unfailingly helpful to me (and always have been).
Solent were equally helpful (and kind) to me when I was returning to Lee on Solent a month ago. Planning to pass outside the zone and not wishing to break in on a very busy frequency I was listening to Solent Radar but had not called them – all the while flying outbound on the 190 radial from CPT instead of the intended 170. A schoolboy mistake I know, but more easily done than you might imagine. Descending rapidly over what had (out of the thick haze) clearly become Winchester, I responded to the call "Any unidentified aircraft working this frequency approximately ten miles to the north of Southampton descending through 2500".
As with Ghengis, I was turned swiftly away and no further action was taken.
I did however once fly in as a passenger a Jet Ranger and the pilot was just a little bit arrogant with them on the radio. We got a "join downwind left for 20, number seven (yes really, number seven) in traffic".
And finally, the pilot who flew into our strip without so much as a phone or radio call to anyone was swiftly traced and invited to have a little chat with the magistrates in Southampton.
So far as I can see, the moral is pretty clear.
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Perhaps this happened because of a wider problem with what unit to talk to enroute.
One has to think that there is the posibility that Shoreham's R/T traffic is partly made up of calls from aircraft that are enroute and not having any effect on or in any real proximity to the aerodrome.
Solent radar are there to provide a service in the Solent CTA and to traffic in CAS.
Goodwood is an AFISO unit which can only provide a service to Aerodrome Traffic it can not as far as I am aware provide an enroute service.
Overall however, we have a bit of a mess with enroute flights not sure of exactly who to talk to and I believe that every VFR flight should be capable of getting a full enroute FIS service in class G airspace from a clearly defined unit. NOT simply calling up and loading every airfield frequency they pick off the map as being "close at hand".
Many operators have a requirment to be in receipt of a minimum of an FIS at all times e.g. Police Operators and I can tell you that Solent don't tell the police aircraft to freecall enroute asap
- I love their idea of offering an FIS to civil GA traffic enroute to the isle of wight and terminating the service just as they coast out on the leg that is in most need of a good ATS service!
Personally, I think that GA calls to Solent should go something like;
"Solent GABCD request FIS"
"GABCD FIS available from London on 124.75"
That would remove any ambiguity and lots of the complaints about Solent and start a whole rash of "why can't we get an FIS from London" debates which is where the problems for enroute aircraft lies.
Imagine the mound of paperwork that would be generated if every pilot submitted a report whenever a FIS was not available when requested due to frequency congestion / controller workload.
Perhaps the non-existance of a proper enroute FIS is the real reason for Genghis having this unfortunate story to tell.
Regards,
DFC
One has to think that there is the posibility that Shoreham's R/T traffic is partly made up of calls from aircraft that are enroute and not having any effect on or in any real proximity to the aerodrome.
Solent radar are there to provide a service in the Solent CTA and to traffic in CAS.
Goodwood is an AFISO unit which can only provide a service to Aerodrome Traffic it can not as far as I am aware provide an enroute service.
Overall however, we have a bit of a mess with enroute flights not sure of exactly who to talk to and I believe that every VFR flight should be capable of getting a full enroute FIS service in class G airspace from a clearly defined unit. NOT simply calling up and loading every airfield frequency they pick off the map as being "close at hand".
Many operators have a requirment to be in receipt of a minimum of an FIS at all times e.g. Police Operators and I can tell you that Solent don't tell the police aircraft to freecall enroute asap
- I love their idea of offering an FIS to civil GA traffic enroute to the isle of wight and terminating the service just as they coast out on the leg that is in most need of a good ATS service!Personally, I think that GA calls to Solent should go something like;
"Solent GABCD request FIS"
"GABCD FIS available from London on 124.75"
That would remove any ambiguity and lots of the complaints about Solent and start a whole rash of "why can't we get an FIS from London" debates which is where the problems for enroute aircraft lies.
Imagine the mound of paperwork that would be generated if every pilot submitted a report whenever a FIS was not available when requested due to frequency congestion / controller workload.
Perhaps the non-existance of a proper enroute FIS is the real reason for Genghis having this unfortunate story to tell.
Regards,
DFC
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Personally, I think that GA calls to Solent should go something like;
I suspect the reason that Solent might like to provide an FIS (which, without a radar service, in reality means nothing more TO THE PILOT than two-way radio contact) is that a lot of casual VFR pilots go very close to their CAS. Especially when going just below the 2000ft bit N of IOW. Obviously Solent can see the a/c on radar which is handy in case the pilot gets too close to something and can be called up.
The absence of an RIS means the controller gets to eat his cake (he gets the radar picture, plus 2-way radio contact which he uses only if he needs to) and gets to keep it (no need to provide a traffic service, or any other service really) to the pilot.
It MUST be better for Solent to have 2-way radio contact with VFR traffic passing so close to Southampton traffic, than to have them talking to say Goodwood (who cannot provide any useful service, beyond "three aircraft known in the area").
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I think there are some very interesting points that have come out of this discussion.
Firstly whilst DFC may be technically correct that solent are their to provide a service for aircraft within CAS as he rightly says if London info provided the service many get from solent whilst outside CAS practically they would be swamped and we all know the funding is not their to do anything about it.
As IO540 says I have always found Solent provide a brilliant service to everyone operating in and around the CAS. I disagree that they try and get rid of you as soon as possible when routing to Bembridge or Sandown for example.
I0540 says picks up on the comment about "three aircraft known in the area." I think this is far to simplistic an approach. So far as a FIS is concerned places like Shoreham and Goodwood will often pass this sort of information and I agree it is not a lot of help.
However lets consider a typical flight from Shoreham to say Bembridge. What are your options?
1. As you leave Shoreham stay on their frequency until say Bognor and ask for a FIS. They will initially tell you something like three aircraft known to the west operating VFR - agreed not a lot of help BUT as you continue on route you will hear other inbound aircraft often reporting now at Littlehampton, 2,400 inbound - great, at least you now have an idea of conflicting traffic, its altitude and where to look. Next over to Goodwood. On initial call up they tell you five in the local area including a Pitts aerobating over Hayling Island up to 5,500 feet. Great, again you know where to look, where to avoid. Another comes on frequency inbound to Goodwood from Bembridge. OK there is a good chance he will cross my track. Next it is Solent and an aircraft is wanting a clearance but asked to hold at Hayling Island, another to look out for and finally having got mid way across the solent on to Bembride for their traffic pattern information.
2. Another option is to talk to London. Ok, but now you miss out on the aircraft inbound to Shoreham, inbound to Goodwood, aerobating and holding at Hayling. London may have some information for you but I bet most of the aircraft in the area if they are talking to anyone will be talking to Goodwood or Shoreham or Solent and not London.
3. Finally, get rid of Shoreham at Worthing (you are outside their zone) and don’t talk to anyone until you get to Bembridge. Great, but you are now totally devoid of any traffic information what so ever other than Shoreham's sign off with you, three know to the west.
I know which I would prefer!
Bembridge, like so many small fields, are friendly, always helpful and not usually over burdened with traffic calls. They are only to willing in my experience to tell Shoreham you couldn’t sign off with them. Why on earth not use them if you need to???
Firstly whilst DFC may be technically correct that solent are their to provide a service for aircraft within CAS as he rightly says if London info provided the service many get from solent whilst outside CAS practically they would be swamped and we all know the funding is not their to do anything about it.
As IO540 says I have always found Solent provide a brilliant service to everyone operating in and around the CAS. I disagree that they try and get rid of you as soon as possible when routing to Bembridge or Sandown for example.
I0540 says picks up on the comment about "three aircraft known in the area." I think this is far to simplistic an approach. So far as a FIS is concerned places like Shoreham and Goodwood will often pass this sort of information and I agree it is not a lot of help.
However lets consider a typical flight from Shoreham to say Bembridge. What are your options?
1. As you leave Shoreham stay on their frequency until say Bognor and ask for a FIS. They will initially tell you something like three aircraft known to the west operating VFR - agreed not a lot of help BUT as you continue on route you will hear other inbound aircraft often reporting now at Littlehampton, 2,400 inbound - great, at least you now have an idea of conflicting traffic, its altitude and where to look. Next over to Goodwood. On initial call up they tell you five in the local area including a Pitts aerobating over Hayling Island up to 5,500 feet. Great, again you know where to look, where to avoid. Another comes on frequency inbound to Goodwood from Bembridge. OK there is a good chance he will cross my track. Next it is Solent and an aircraft is wanting a clearance but asked to hold at Hayling Island, another to look out for and finally having got mid way across the solent on to Bembride for their traffic pattern information.
2. Another option is to talk to London. Ok, but now you miss out on the aircraft inbound to Shoreham, inbound to Goodwood, aerobating and holding at Hayling. London may have some information for you but I bet most of the aircraft in the area if they are talking to anyone will be talking to Goodwood or Shoreham or Solent and not London.
3. Finally, get rid of Shoreham at Worthing (you are outside their zone) and don’t talk to anyone until you get to Bembridge. Great, but you are now totally devoid of any traffic information what so ever other than Shoreham's sign off with you, three know to the west.
I know which I would prefer!
Bembridge, like so many small fields, are friendly, always helpful and not usually over burdened with traffic calls. They are only to willing in my experience to tell Shoreham you couldn’t sign off with them. Why on earth not use them if you need to???
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Its a shame that LARS coverage isn't widely available at the weekends. I use Brize Radar when in my local area for a RIS (they're H24), and the service is excellent, they always give useful information about traffic and parachute dropping in the area which is common. I always feel safer when on radar.
As said on here already, an FIS can be less helpful. Usually something like "three aircraft known in area, roughly same height" and they can't be seen. Its almost as bad as hearing someone report at the same altitude and position that your at, and not being able to see them
As said on here already, an FIS can be less helpful. Usually something like "three aircraft known in area, roughly same height" and they can't be seen. Its almost as bad as hearing someone report at the same altitude and position that your at, and not being able to see them
