PFA a/c and flight tests.
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PFA a/c and flight tests.
I've been wading through the mess that is the NPPL to JAR licence conversion for a very experienced NPPL, microlight and Helicopter pilot who wants to take his lovely new Zenair 601 abroad.
My question is this, can he take his skills test on his a/c? He cannot find any phrases that say the a/c can't be used for aerial work, but I want to get this sorted asap just in case the Belgrano throw his application back.
Most PPL's seem to know more about PFA types than the vast majority of instructors (myself included) so any help would be appreciated.
p.s I have fired off an e-mail to the PFA to try and help.
My question is this, can he take his skills test on his a/c? He cannot find any phrases that say the a/c can't be used for aerial work, but I want to get this sorted asap just in case the Belgrano throw his application back.
Most PPL's seem to know more about PFA types than the vast majority of instructors (myself included) so any help would be appreciated.
p.s I have fired off an e-mail to the PFA to try and help.
Why is it a 'mess'? It is quite clearly laid out in LASORS:
Upgrade to JAR-FCL PPL(A)
The holder of a NPPL with SEP aircraft rating wishing to obtain a JAR-FCL PPL(A) shall :-
a) Complete at least 45 hours flight time, of which at least 35 hours must have been as a pilot of SEP aeroplanes. A maximum of 5 hours may be completed in an approved FNPT or flight simulator.
This flight time must include :-
1) 20 hours dual instruction of SEP aeroplanes with a JAR qualified instructor;
2) 10 hours supervised solo flight time on SEP aeroplanes which must include 5 hours solo cross country flight time including one cross country flight of at least 270 km (150 nm), during which full stop landings at two different aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made as per JAR-FCL 1.125.
This means that all SEP hours flown under NPPL privileges will count, as will the instruction for a NPPL SSEA Rating flown with a JAR-FCL FI. If the NPPL SSEA Rating was obtained on conversion from a Microlight Rating, then if you don't already have 20 such dual hours,you'll have to make up the difference with a JAR-FCL FI. Not a CAA or NPPL P&SC ruling, this is a JAA mandatory requirement.
The 150nm navigation exercise must be carried out solo and must be supervised by a JAR-FCL FI even if you wish to fly under NPPL SSEA privilieges.
b) Pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge Examinations (unless previously passed for the NPPL (SSEA)).
Self explantory.
c) Hold a valid JAR-FCL Class 1 or 2 medical certificate.
Self explanatory.
d) Pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test as detailed in Section C1.4.
Self explanatory.
So where is the mess - which part can you not understand?
As for the question of conducting a flight test in a privately-owned aircraft, see AIC 7/04 (White 94) 'Flying Training and Tests in Solely Owned and Jointly Owned Aircraft having a Certificate of Airworthiness in the Private Category'. A JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test in an aircraft which does not have a C of A? I don't think so.
Upgrade to JAR-FCL PPL(A)
The holder of a NPPL with SEP aircraft rating wishing to obtain a JAR-FCL PPL(A) shall :-
a) Complete at least 45 hours flight time, of which at least 35 hours must have been as a pilot of SEP aeroplanes. A maximum of 5 hours may be completed in an approved FNPT or flight simulator.
This flight time must include :-
1) 20 hours dual instruction of SEP aeroplanes with a JAR qualified instructor;
2) 10 hours supervised solo flight time on SEP aeroplanes which must include 5 hours solo cross country flight time including one cross country flight of at least 270 km (150 nm), during which full stop landings at two different aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made as per JAR-FCL 1.125.
This means that all SEP hours flown under NPPL privileges will count, as will the instruction for a NPPL SSEA Rating flown with a JAR-FCL FI. If the NPPL SSEA Rating was obtained on conversion from a Microlight Rating, then if you don't already have 20 such dual hours,you'll have to make up the difference with a JAR-FCL FI. Not a CAA or NPPL P&SC ruling, this is a JAA mandatory requirement.
The 150nm navigation exercise must be carried out solo and must be supervised by a JAR-FCL FI even if you wish to fly under NPPL SSEA privilieges.
b) Pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge Examinations (unless previously passed for the NPPL (SSEA)).
Self explantory.
c) Hold a valid JAR-FCL Class 1 or 2 medical certificate.
Self explanatory.
d) Pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test as detailed in Section C1.4.
Self explanatory.
So where is the mess - which part can you not understand?
As for the question of conducting a flight test in a privately-owned aircraft, see AIC 7/04 (White 94) 'Flying Training and Tests in Solely Owned and Jointly Owned Aircraft having a Certificate of Airworthiness in the Private Category'. A JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test in an aircraft which does not have a C of A? I don't think so.
Last edited by BEagle; 18th Aug 2005 at 05:50.
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Actually he can ... but only if un-remunerated.
see ...
Can I learn to fly in a PFA aeroplane
So unless you can find an examiner who doesn't charge, the test at least, will have to be in a CofA a/c
SS
see ...
Can I learn to fly in a PFA aeroplane
So unless you can find an examiner who doesn't charge, the test at least, will have to be in a CofA a/c
SS
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All part of the mess relating to training.
If the instructor gets paid it's aerial work, he needs at least a CPL with a Class 1 medical and the aeroplane has to have a C of A (unless of course it's a microlight).
On the other hand if he doesn't get paid he can hold a PPL with an FI rating, a Class 2 Medical and, since it's not aerial work the aircraft does not need to be on a C of A.
The reciept of cash is a highly demanding activity requiring far higher levels of aeronautical skill and knowledge, medical fitness and airworthiness as any fule no.
If the instructor gets paid it's aerial work, he needs at least a CPL with a Class 1 medical and the aeroplane has to have a C of A (unless of course it's a microlight).
On the other hand if he doesn't get paid he can hold a PPL with an FI rating, a Class 2 Medical and, since it's not aerial work the aircraft does not need to be on a C of A.
The reciept of cash is a highly demanding activity requiring far higher levels of aeronautical skill and knowledge, medical fitness and airworthiness as any fule no.
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The mess, is that I'm flying with a chap who's very experienced on heli's and both weight shift and 3 axis microlights, but has only got very few hours in SEP a/c. His flying is top notch, but because it is on microlights it doesn't count.
Basically I'm sitting next to this chap, wasting my time and his money to satisfy LASORS. Which are self explanatory in how they are written even if I think they are a load of old tosh.
Personally I think its over complex and the rules relating to the examiner are daft.
Why can you be taught on a PFA a/c, but not do the test unless it is not renumerated? And why can I be paid and the examiner not? What difference does that make to flight safety?
If that isn't a mess, then what is?
Basically I'm sitting next to this chap, wasting my time and his money to satisfy LASORS. Which are self explanatory in how they are written even if I think they are a load of old tosh.
Personally I think its over complex and the rules relating to the examiner are daft.
Why can you be taught on a PFA a/c, but not do the test unless it is not renumerated? And why can I be paid and the examiner not? What difference does that make to flight safety?
If that isn't a mess, then what is?
It's a nonsense, and the CAA know it is. I sat in a meeting with FD at Gatwick about 3 years ago, and CAA didn't even realise that the restriction existed and agreed with us that it was silly and that if they could be taught in the aeroplane they should be able to be tested in it.
There are a lot of people who have happily ignored it and I'm quite certain that CAA have NEVER queried this, but if you are concerned, I'd recommend getting onto GAD at Aviation House and getting a letter agreeing that if you can teach in it, you can examine. Bob Commander is probably the fellow to speak to.
G
There are a lot of people who have happily ignored it and I'm quite certain that CAA have NEVER queried this, but if you are concerned, I'd recommend getting onto GAD at Aviation House and getting a letter agreeing that if you can teach in it, you can examine. Bob Commander is probably the fellow to speak to.
G
If you read SaS's original post, it's quite clear that the chap is getting a JAR licence so that he can fly abroad.
That said, I've not heard of any European country refusing overflight permission to an NPPL holder if asked.
G
That said, I've not heard of any European country refusing overflight permission to an NPPL holder if asked.
G
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If the Zenair is a microlight flavour then the gentleman doesn't need a JAR unless he wishes to fly outside europe. Even then he may be OK on his NPPL, if he asks.
Ghengis, what exactly have the CAA done to sort out the NPPL instruction fiasco? An instructor friend of mine has a letter from them saying he is exempt for the aerial work restriction so that he can teach in a microlight. Would the CAA's letter overide the ANO?
Roll on EASA RPPL.
Ghengis, what exactly have the CAA done to sort out the NPPL instruction fiasco? An instructor friend of mine has a letter from them saying he is exempt for the aerial work restriction so that he can teach in a microlight. Would the CAA's letter overide the ANO?
Roll on EASA RPPL.
The draft ANO revision presented to the NPPL P&SC includes the right to give remuneration for flight instruction for the NPPL Microlight and SLMG Class Ratings.
The delay in agreeing this draft was entirely down to the CAA and it is now well over a year late with no real excuse; the format was generally agreed in June 2004 but it wasn't until June 2005 that the CAA called another NPPL P&SC meeting - despite several prompts from your truly.
It is unlikely that the ANO amendment will become law until Spring 2006 at the earliest; until then the CAA has to issue Micrlight and SLMG instructors with exemptions from the relevant part of the ANO governing NPPL flight instruction.
The delay in agreeing this draft was entirely down to the CAA and it is now well over a year late with no real excuse; the format was generally agreed in June 2004 but it wasn't until June 2005 that the CAA called another NPPL P&SC meeting - despite several prompts from your truly.
It is unlikely that the ANO amendment will become law until Spring 2006 at the earliest; until then the CAA has to issue Micrlight and SLMG instructors with exemptions from the relevant part of the ANO governing NPPL flight instruction.
