FAA vs JAA IR
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: london
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FAA vs JAA IR
I read a letter in one of the flying magazines recently, claiming that gaining an FAA instrument rating doesn't save significant money compared to its JAA counterpart. This being the case, why do so many people register aircraft with an N instead of a G? What are the benefits of both systems? I can understand how the FAA IR is only valid on N reg aircraft when flying in the UK. What about flying an N reg aircraft on a JAA IR when in the UK, or even flying an N reg aircraft on a JAA PPL? What are the restrictions placed on the licence, rating and registration of the aircraft?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This subject is very hot at the moment. The CAA will be stopping all N reg flying in this country soon. I think it is possible to make some comments to the CAA. So the answer must be to forget about changing your machine to the N reg and no need to do any FAA PPL. I think this is a problem.
Also i think your fact is wrong. My friend flies G reg with FAA/IR license in IMC and IR
Also i think your fact is wrong. My friend flies G reg with FAA/IR license in IMC and IR
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bpilatus - best you get your facts straight before posting
Wrong - The DfT is looking at ways to prevent, but nothing is cut and dried yet.
Would you like to expand on that? The CAA is prepared to give an IMC rating to a UK licence holder if they hold an FAA IR, subject to certain conditions. They do not however recognise an FAA IR for use in a 'G' reg aircraft in terms of allowing the privileges the rating would bestow if it was used in an 'N' reg aircraft.
The CAA recognises and validates an FAA licence for use in conjunction with a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the world - but only for flights conducted day VFR.
This subject is very hot at the moment. The CAA will be stopping all N reg flying in this country soon.
Also i think your fact is wrong. My friend flies G reg with FAA/IR license in IMC and IR
The CAA recognises and validates an FAA licence for use in conjunction with a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the world - but only for flights conducted day VFR.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok guys I accept better info from the professional ATCOs. My friend has all the ratings FAA/IR/IMC/SEP/MEP. She never has a problem with N reg and IMC in the airways.
How can the CAA give IMC for a FAA/IR! This is below the standard acceptable. But I think it is difficult to tell me that there is not a lot of problems for the N reg guys.
How can the CAA give IMC for a FAA/IR! This is below the standard acceptable. But I think it is difficult to tell me that there is not a lot of problems for the N reg guys.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MJG,
The FAA IR will set you back about $7000, or about £3500-4000 depending on what the exchange rate is doing at the time. That price is inclusive of the flight test and licence issue as well. If you find a course that doesnt include the test its about $250-300. The written exam is about $75.
In the Uk an IR is about £12000 and the flight test and licence issue is another couple of k on top of that. You also have to have passed the relevant ATLP exams, so say you have done them all on a distance learning basis about £3000.
The rating itself is considerably cheaper however you also have to look at how long you are going to take to do it and incorpaorate all those costs as well. A few places will do an IR in 2 wks but that can be a lot of flying so would budget for 3 wks
So say
£350 return flight to US
$840 / £470 hotel room based on 21 nights at £40/night.
(Although I do know one course that for $7000 includes all test, accomdation, transfers, etc - in fact everything it seems but the flight over there!!!)
I have not included anything for food or beer as thats something you would have to pay for if you were in the UK anyway. Also not included for shopping as I always tend to go mad over there as prices much cheaper than here in UK forjust about everything :o)
So say for about £5000 you get an IR rating and 3 wks holiday in the US, compared to about £17000 for the JAA IR.
If your intention is to get an FAA IR and convert then you need 15 hours conversion, the flight test and the ATPL exams, so taking that into account and using EFT rates for IR training thats about
£5250 for 15hrs conversion (or £2400 if done in FNPT II)
£2000 flight test
£3000 ATPL exams
Or just about £14250 (£11,400 if sim used for conversion training).
These are ballpark figures and I have assumed you pass everything in minimum hours when quoting prices for both the US and JAA IR.
At end of day it depends if you are going to convert or not. You will still save a few quid and have two IR licences if you do, and the FAA IR is much easier to keep current!
If you just want to do the FAA IR then you will save an absolute shed load.
Obviouslt getting the time off work can be a major issue for some people as well and so have to complete in the UK.
As I said these are only rough figures and its late so someone will probably pick me up for something I have missed but will give you a general idea.
Julian.
The FAA IR will set you back about $7000, or about £3500-4000 depending on what the exchange rate is doing at the time. That price is inclusive of the flight test and licence issue as well. If you find a course that doesnt include the test its about $250-300. The written exam is about $75.
In the Uk an IR is about £12000 and the flight test and licence issue is another couple of k on top of that. You also have to have passed the relevant ATLP exams, so say you have done them all on a distance learning basis about £3000.
The rating itself is considerably cheaper however you also have to look at how long you are going to take to do it and incorpaorate all those costs as well. A few places will do an IR in 2 wks but that can be a lot of flying so would budget for 3 wks
So say
£350 return flight to US
$840 / £470 hotel room based on 21 nights at £40/night.
(Although I do know one course that for $7000 includes all test, accomdation, transfers, etc - in fact everything it seems but the flight over there!!!)
I have not included anything for food or beer as thats something you would have to pay for if you were in the UK anyway. Also not included for shopping as I always tend to go mad over there as prices much cheaper than here in UK forjust about everything :o)
So say for about £5000 you get an IR rating and 3 wks holiday in the US, compared to about £17000 for the JAA IR.
If your intention is to get an FAA IR and convert then you need 15 hours conversion, the flight test and the ATPL exams, so taking that into account and using EFT rates for IR training thats about
£5250 for 15hrs conversion (or £2400 if done in FNPT II)
£2000 flight test
£3000 ATPL exams
Or just about £14250 (£11,400 if sim used for conversion training).
These are ballpark figures and I have assumed you pass everything in minimum hours when quoting prices for both the US and JAA IR.
At end of day it depends if you are going to convert or not. You will still save a few quid and have two IR licences if you do, and the FAA IR is much easier to keep current!
If you just want to do the FAA IR then you will save an absolute shed load.
Obviouslt getting the time off work can be a major issue for some people as well and so have to complete in the UK.
As I said these are only rough figures and its late so someone will probably pick me up for something I have missed but will give you a general idea.
Julian.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Julian thanks for your words. Very interestng! I think you have done some research here. I dream about having a CAA/IR and flying in the airways with the jets. I think this course is very difficult and just for the BAA/ EASIJET comercial boys. I like your figure of £14,250 but I think not many pilots can pass the test with minimum hours! 50 SEP 55 MEP. I prefer the N reg IR but this is going soon in the UK airspace. I think 55 hours MEP is £400/hour so that means about £20,000+ Ok some training is possible in the sim. But which guys wants to fly in a sim! With some other fees I say maybe £25,000 for a CAA/IR. Ok so I can by an aeroplane for this! So I see that a FAA/IR is simple and maybe better for pilots here. Any guys getting a CAA/iir must be very rich and have to much time. Then the guys by a Pilatus!
Happy day
Ciao
Happy day
Ciao
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bpilatus, where are you getting your figures and facts from, a cornflake box.
As has been pointed out there is no plan to styop FAA IR holders flying airways. There is a subject of discussion about foriegn ownership being restricted but an FAA IR is an ICAO IR.
The cost of a JAR MEP/IR all in as about £14k. My distance learning was £1000. Flight time in a Seneca is £210 per hour.
So:
Theory £1000
Flying £11550
Test £1000
Sim time is available from about £80 per hour which can knock a considerable amount of cost off as well. Doing the rating in a single with just the last 15hrs in the twin will also save money.
Oh and the CAA do not have an IR we have a JAA IR.....
As has been pointed out there is no plan to styop FAA IR holders flying airways. There is a subject of discussion about foriegn ownership being restricted but an FAA IR is an ICAO IR.
The cost of a JAR MEP/IR all in as about £14k. My distance learning was £1000. Flight time in a Seneca is £210 per hour.
So:
Theory £1000
Flying £11550
Test £1000
Sim time is available from about £80 per hour which can knock a considerable amount of cost off as well. Doing the rating in a single with just the last 15hrs in the twin will also save money.
Oh and the CAA do not have an IR we have a JAA IR.....
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get my info from a very good place! I think a Seneca is more than you say for a CAA/IR pilot instructor as well in the P2. These figures you say are not true. I think that I know more and I say you do not have a CAA/IR and a JAA/IR and everybody always work the cost on basic hours. It take more than basic hours to pass the CAA/IR. The FAA test is very easy and much better for PPL guys. Trainning is very easy for a PPL with IMC. I think no guys on here have a CAA/IR. This is the top.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bpilatus, I struggled to interpet your last post but I can assure you the prices I quoted are correct as they are what I have been paying!
The FAA IR is easier to achieve than a JAA IR no one is arguing about that. The exams are simpler and the training is cheaper especially if done in the USA.
I am merely questioning your JAA IR costs.
Cranfield Aviation charge £930 plus VAT for the IR Distance learning modules (very nice guys by the way!)
There are a number of companies that will do the training. My friend has just finished his IR With bonus at Cranfield and did it in the 55hrs and passed first time, cost was about 12k. Taylor Aviation at Cranfield are just about to get approval for teaching the IR and are quoting similar prices.
And the point I was making is there is no such thing as a CAA/IR anymore it is all JAR now.
I suggest you check your facts before posting your fiction!
The FAA IR is easier to achieve than a JAA IR no one is arguing about that. The exams are simpler and the training is cheaper especially if done in the USA.
I am merely questioning your JAA IR costs.
Cranfield Aviation charge £930 plus VAT for the IR Distance learning modules (very nice guys by the way!)
There are a number of companies that will do the training. My friend has just finished his IR With bonus at Cranfield and did it in the 55hrs and passed first time, cost was about 12k. Taylor Aviation at Cranfield are just about to get approval for teaching the IR and are quoting similar prices.
And the point I was making is there is no such thing as a CAA/IR anymore it is all JAR now.
I suggest you check your facts before posting your fiction!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of nonsense in here - even when one can decipher the grammar.
People don't do the FAA IR over the JAA IR to save money on TRAINING. The cost of training (for either) is a pittance compared to
a) the cost of obtaining an aircraft (or access to one) that's well enough equipped, in good enough condition, and legal to fly European airways. Very very few of these about under £100k and they generally aren't rentable.
b) the cost of keeping IFR current in the long term
c) the cost of flying generally
Most people that do the FAA IR are people who have a real job; probably a business of some sort. Somebody earning the NMW isn't going to be doing much flying, never mind achieving a) and b) above. And most people with real jobs and real lives can't do the JAA IR due to time it takes to meet the ground school requirements. Most people that do the JAA IR are airline pilot trainees who have little or no income and plenty of time.
Some planes are not Euro certified and have to be on N.
Some planes can be Euro certified but the particular ones have been fitted with extras (usually good safety extras) which aren't Euro certified and doing so would cost a fortune, so N is the only practical choice.
Most N owners pay dearly for being on N over G. Most things cost more and a lot of small things require expensive paperwork which has to be purchased from a DER, etc. That's the price of being able to fly IFR while having a life.
People don't do the FAA IR over the JAA IR to save money on TRAINING. The cost of training (for either) is a pittance compared to
a) the cost of obtaining an aircraft (or access to one) that's well enough equipped, in good enough condition, and legal to fly European airways. Very very few of these about under £100k and they generally aren't rentable.
b) the cost of keeping IFR current in the long term
c) the cost of flying generally
Most people that do the FAA IR are people who have a real job; probably a business of some sort. Somebody earning the NMW isn't going to be doing much flying, never mind achieving a) and b) above. And most people with real jobs and real lives can't do the JAA IR due to time it takes to meet the ground school requirements. Most people that do the JAA IR are airline pilot trainees who have little or no income and plenty of time.
Some planes are not Euro certified and have to be on N.
Some planes can be Euro certified but the particular ones have been fitted with extras (usually good safety extras) which aren't Euro certified and doing so would cost a fortune, so N is the only practical choice.
Most N owners pay dearly for being on N over G. Most things cost more and a lot of small things require expensive paperwork which has to be purchased from a DER, etc. That's the price of being able to fly IFR while having a life.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its amazing how prices vary....one place down south charge £330 per hour BE76 dual, and £200 / hr for the FNPTII sim.....Their training is good and they achieve very good pass rates.
Another place in Scotland charges about £270 / hr in PA34200T's and £110 / hr for FNPTII....but they also have very good pass rates and people speak highly of them.....
All plus VAT of course.
Its almost worth starting your own company, registering for VAT, doing the training, claiming the VAT back, and then winding up the company. Wonder what the tax rules would say on this?
Another place in Scotland charges about £270 / hr in PA34200T's and £110 / hr for FNPTII....but they also have very good pass rates and people speak highly of them.....
All plus VAT of course.
Its almost worth starting your own company, registering for VAT, doing the training, claiming the VAT back, and then winding up the company. Wonder what the tax rules would say on this?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys talk the same as me. I say sorry if I am not clear in my expression. I think Bose is confused. But I say one thing more. Some PPL pilots try for the CAA/IR but find life to hard so they change to FAA/IR. FAA/IR is like a IMC certificate in UK. Ok for clouds and things but when I see what these CAA/IR guys have to do for the test o boy. My head hurts just looking at the work. I no you will not like me to say but FAA/Ir just allows a look in the cloud then come back down into IFR. Sorry guys I no you will not like what I say this time. I visit IOW with my friend on Sunday. O boy we have some problems with radio work and traffic and airshows. I say nothing more at the moment!?! I think maybe 2D is working and he give us a hard time.
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 51
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remember Julian's figures for converting an FAA IR are for minimum hours. Don't expect to pass in minimum hours if you come back with a fresh FAA IR! That is not what the 15-hour course was designed for - it was designed for experienced foreign-registered pilots doing a conversion having used their overseas IRs subsequent to training. You will find this track rarely saves money overall - I have known of many, going through our school and others. I know someone who took the whole JAA IR course even having an FAA IR!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bpilatus,
Why is it only in the last month, that your English has deteriorated so much? 2 Donkeys post on the other thread, seems to have had a serious effect on your language skills. Before that, you seemed to be fluent in English.
Why is it only in the last month, that your English has deteriorated so much? 2 Donkeys post on the other thread, seems to have had a serious effect on your language skills. Before that, you seemed to be fluent in English.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep as Clowns says and I pointed out originally, all my hours quoted are the absolute minimums! So for the FAA if you bust the 42 hours allowed in the course the training school I used charges then your have to pay $125/hr for the extra training ($95 for an IFR 172 SP and $35 for instructor).
This will obviously be more if you bust your hours in the uk where its much more an hour so its a good idea as well to use your IR in the US for a bit before you take the JAA IR and get used to what is required. When I passed me and a mate (who also had just got his IR), used to fly together until we felt comfortable.
To look at it another way, you end up with 2 licences for the price of one so doing the FAA IR before your JAA is still a good move and also good experience.
I want to undertake the JAA IR but cost is an issue at the moment
Julian
This will obviously be more if you bust your hours in the uk where its much more an hour so its a good idea as well to use your IR in the US for a bit before you take the JAA IR and get used to what is required. When I passed me and a mate (who also had just got his IR), used to fly together until we felt comfortable.
To look at it another way, you end up with 2 licences for the price of one so doing the FAA IR before your JAA is still a good move and also good experience.
I want to undertake the JAA IR but cost is an issue at the moment
Julian
Suave yet Shallow
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: half way between the gutter and the stars.
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I no you will not like me to say but FAA/Ir just allows a look in the cloud then come back down into IFR
O boy we have some problems with radio work
The phrase 'no sh
t sherlock' springs to mind. Mind you, no matter how hard you think the radio work was - the controllers would've had a tougher time trying to decypher your mumblings.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think people get really wound up about what kind of training you have done and what certificate you have or what test you past 10 years ago perhaps...
as far as i can see boys and girls the pilot that practices the most will be the more profficient pilot.
There are more aircraft by a vast majority on the 'N' reg than any other reg in the world. And they can't very well say no 'N' reg flying in the UK what are they going to say to United Airlines?! sorry we don't think your good enough?
as far as i can see boys and girls the pilot that practices the most will be the more profficient pilot.
There are more aircraft by a vast majority on the 'N' reg than any other reg in the world. And they can't very well say no 'N' reg flying in the UK what are they going to say to United Airlines?! sorry we don't think your good enough?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dublinpilot of course I am not the same person. The first person on here is my friend. So I see you do not think I say the truth to you. Well you have to like it my friend. I agree with Send Clowns the numbers are minimum numbers. Only very good pilot can pass this test in minimum hours. Ok you guys are clever guys but I try hard on my english. Why you want to say those bad things about me. You are the same guys who talk bad about Whirlygirls trip to France!?! Come on guys you can give me a break I try very hard to have a conversation with Pprune guys. If I have a hard time here I go to Flyer forum. This is not my choice