Mayday Frequency
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I'm personally in the 'Go Directly to 121.5 without passing GO' camp - if opportunity / time permitted, then a quick courtesy call to the ATSU I'm working to say 'G-xx QSYing to 121.5'. I know it's not CAP413, but I hope they'd let me off just the once!!
In other circumstances it might well be worth leaving the ATC unit you're with and going direct to D&D, say on London Info. But if already identified on a radar display and working said radar equiped unit, best to stick with them imo.
WF.
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Just to pick up on BRL's comment.....
If you get the chance to go to D&D at West Drayton - take it.
I visited them last year and I have to say that it was one of the most interesting afternoons I've spent in a long time. They took the time and effort and answered every question that was asked of them.
During my PPL training I never had the chance to make a visit to any ATC unit so I wasn't sure what I was expecting to see. To be sitting at WD watching aircraft bashing the circuit at EGNT was amazing.
The folk that work at D&D do a superb job - you will not be dissapointed with the visit I can assure you.
PD
I visited them last year and I have to say that it was one of the most interesting afternoons I've spent in a long time. They took the time and effort and answered every question that was asked of them.
During my PPL training I never had the chance to make a visit to any ATC unit so I wasn't sure what I was expecting to see. To be sitting at WD watching aircraft bashing the circuit at EGNT was amazing.
The folk that work at D&D do a superb job - you will not be dissapointed with the visit I can assure you.
PD
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They are NOTAMed as not talking to VFR traffic at the moment - but don't let that deter you. from having the frequency tuned.
I cannot fault your logic - it would seem that Lille might be able to provide an accurate fix of your position and scramble the closest SAR asset, (I am surprised that the radar controller would have a red telephone direct to a SAR helo unit - in the UK it has to come from ARCC or the Coastguard). But the above quote sounds alarm bells to me. Why are they NOTAM'd as not for VFR Traffic? Are they too busy? If so, maybe the wait to get a word in edgeways would offset any advantage using them might have?
The point about time to get rescued is a very valid one. I believe the nearest helicopter base for SAR is now Wattisham. Quite incredible that the nearest base to the world's busiest shipping lane is an hour away.
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I think that this is one of those cases where you can either spout "air law" (which in this case has nothing to do with it) or consider the practicalities.
Frankly, legal concerns should be the last thing on a pilot's mind in an emergency. Like the old saying goes, "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried out by six". In any event, the pilot in command has considerable discretion in such situations, and the risk of prosecution (let alone conviction) is very low.
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WF
I would suggest that your chances of getting a RIS or RAS on a weekend day would be slim to none.
D&D will pin point your position instantly on the magic map as it uses your radio signal to get three bearing. Getting a radar fix may need course changes and may take some time, especially if the channel looks like snow on the screen. Better than nothing, but not the best that's available to you.
If you started calling Mayday to Lille, I suspect they would answer pretty quickly.
I would suggest that your chances of getting a RIS or RAS on a weekend day would be slim to none.
D&D will pin point your position instantly on the magic map as it uses your radio signal to get three bearing. Getting a radar fix may need course changes and may take some time, especially if the channel looks like snow on the screen. Better than nothing, but not the best that's available to you.
If you started calling Mayday to Lille, I suspect they would answer pretty quickly.
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Excellent thread Kolibear ... have duly noted the proposed visit to D&D BRL - would just like to add that a yacht or small vessel is the one to plan to ditch alongside as they are able to stop/turn easily - the big guys, even if they see you, can apparently take a few miles to effect a course adjustment (so I have been told) 
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In the original post you mentioned that there were several other aircraft on frequency. It is probably worth a thought to how you might react on hearing a mayday transmitted on the frequency in use.
The distress aircraft only needs to know that someone has heard him, they can then get on with the business in hand.
If you hear a mayday in flight that is not acknowledged by ATC then you should reply with 'C/S this is C/S roger mayday out'. Then on either the freq in use or 121.5 you should broadcast 'mayday relay X3 this is C/S'. When asked to pass the message, pass it exactly as you heard it and be sure to emphasise the callsign that you are relaying for so that you are not mistaken as the aircraft in distress.
The distress aircraft only needs to know that someone has heard him, they can then get on with the business in hand.
If you hear a mayday in flight that is not acknowledged by ATC then you should reply with 'C/S this is C/S roger mayday out'. Then on either the freq in use or 121.5 you should broadcast 'mayday relay X3 this is C/S'. When asked to pass the message, pass it exactly as you heard it and be sure to emphasise the callsign that you are relaying for so that you are not mistaken as the aircraft in distress.
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It would seem that most of you have missed the point, the most important thing is to get a fix out just before you hit the water that way you take the "search" out of search and reascue !.
Thirty feet above the water D & D won't hear you, London info won't hear you and any radar unit you might be working won't hear you but a large number of airliners WILL hear you because they are all listening to 121.5 these days.
Speed of rescue is vital as your life expectancy in the sea is very short and if the rescue guys know the correct place to look you will increase your chances ten fold. now go back and read my first post on this subject and think about using ALL the assets that are avalable to you and how to use them to your best advantage.
Thirty feet above the water D & D won't hear you, London info won't hear you and any radar unit you might be working won't hear you but a large number of airliners WILL hear you because they are all listening to 121.5 these days.
Speed of rescue is vital as your life expectancy in the sea is very short and if the rescue guys know the correct place to look you will increase your chances ten fold. now go back and read my first post on this subject and think about using ALL the assets that are avalable to you and how to use them to your best advantage.
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A and C,
With all respect, I would feel uncomfortable transmitting a mayday at the last minute. For the reasons that you describe, it appears to be a good idea, but if you weren't heard for whatever reason by another flight crew, nobody would know the position of the aircraft.
Surely a better approach would be to:
1. Transmit on current ATS frequency or 121.5MHz as appropriate, when you normally would during the emergency drill.
2. Transmit on current ATS frequency or 121.5MHz as appropriate, just before hitting the water.
The best of both worlds?
POL
With all respect, I would feel uncomfortable transmitting a mayday at the last minute. For the reasons that you describe, it appears to be a good idea, but if you weren't heard for whatever reason by another flight crew, nobody would know the position of the aircraft.
Surely a better approach would be to:
1. Transmit on current ATS frequency or 121.5MHz as appropriate, when you normally would during the emergency drill.
2. Transmit on current ATS frequency or 121.5MHz as appropriate, just before hitting the water.
The best of both worlds?
POL
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This is the point I was making about establishing a track with D&D. If you called every 500ft or even every 1000ft and read out your altitude, they would be able to work out your splash point quite quickly and send SAR towards that area before you were even in the drink.
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Pole Hill
I can assure you that almost all airliners have box 2 tuned to 121.5 these days for security reasons so you would be broardcasting to a lot of aircraft of course the LAST fix should be transmited as you are about to hit the water the first one should be made as soon as you know you have a problem.
I like most pepole with a panel mounted GPS can also fix a radial and distance from a nav aid/airport so if I was near and in a position to start a search then I would, it is very important to get the search started quickly and vital if the victims are not in a liferaft. The psycological effect on the people in the water of an aircraft overhead cannot be overstated and the help in visual identification of the victims to a rescue helicopter is very usefull to aid a fast pickup.
I have twice been in a position to relay for a seach and resuce aircraft operating at low level, once for a helicopter in the channel working London info and that was hard work due to the large amount of other radio traffic and due to this traffic a switch to 121.5 was imminent when the seach was called off.
The other time was for a Nimrod over the north atlantic south of Ireland in both cases the search aircraft was out of VHF range of controling units. I have no doubt that both the helicopter and the Nimrod could have used the HF to contact controling units but I think they prefered the relay option to cut down on crew workload.
I like most pepole with a panel mounted GPS can also fix a radial and distance from a nav aid/airport so if I was near and in a position to start a search then I would, it is very important to get the search started quickly and vital if the victims are not in a liferaft. The psycological effect on the people in the water of an aircraft overhead cannot be overstated and the help in visual identification of the victims to a rescue helicopter is very usefull to aid a fast pickup.
I have twice been in a position to relay for a seach and resuce aircraft operating at low level, once for a helicopter in the channel working London info and that was hard work due to the large amount of other radio traffic and due to this traffic a switch to 121.5 was imminent when the seach was called off.
The other time was for a Nimrod over the north atlantic south of Ireland in both cases the search aircraft was out of VHF range of controling units. I have no doubt that both the helicopter and the Nimrod could have used the HF to contact controling units but I think they prefered the relay option to cut down on crew workload.
Last edited by A and C; 17th Jul 2005 at 11:48.
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Afternoon, I just thought that I might put in my 2-penneth. My own personal feeling is that, if you have the time, put in the call on your in-use frequency. FIR would almost certainly call us to say that they were transferring you to 121.5. That way as well we can start the ball rolling. However, circumstance can often dictate otherwise. As far as coverage is concerned, some thoughts.
1. The important part of the DF coverage figures to take away is that it is based on coverage over land. Hence, south of Manchester and east of N864 (the north-south airway in Wales) coverage is 3000’ and within the LTMA 2000’ doesn’t quite give you the full picture. However, our actual DF coverage is better than the design specification figures and we certainly get DF over the oggin.
2. Don’t let the DF coverage figures confuse you about our RT coverage on 121.5 though. It’s generally a lot better than the DF coverage. Having said that, there are times when we can hear you and you can’t hear us because of altitude/position etc, or that an overflying ac can hear you, but not us and relay your message to us. It may sound long-winded but it does work, as some of you may be able to testify and all our controllers are trained to do that kind of lateral thinking.
3. On the lateral thinking topic, someone mentioned our radar coverage over the south coast as not being very good. Well that’s true, however, we liaise with a number of other radar equipped units, civil and military, who have radars in those areas and if D&D asks them to look, then people are always keen to help.
One final note about visits. As some of you know, it’s very easy to visit D&D. I think everyone who visits gets a lot out of it and it really is as easy as making a phonecall and sending an email to organize. For anyone who can’t visit but has questions to ask just give us a call. Our number is in the books.
Happy Flying!!
1. The important part of the DF coverage figures to take away is that it is based on coverage over land. Hence, south of Manchester and east of N864 (the north-south airway in Wales) coverage is 3000’ and within the LTMA 2000’ doesn’t quite give you the full picture. However, our actual DF coverage is better than the design specification figures and we certainly get DF over the oggin.
2. Don’t let the DF coverage figures confuse you about our RT coverage on 121.5 though. It’s generally a lot better than the DF coverage. Having said that, there are times when we can hear you and you can’t hear us because of altitude/position etc, or that an overflying ac can hear you, but not us and relay your message to us. It may sound long-winded but it does work, as some of you may be able to testify and all our controllers are trained to do that kind of lateral thinking.
3. On the lateral thinking topic, someone mentioned our radar coverage over the south coast as not being very good. Well that’s true, however, we liaise with a number of other radar equipped units, civil and military, who have radars in those areas and if D&D asks them to look, then people are always keen to help.
One final note about visits. As some of you know, it’s very easy to visit D&D. I think everyone who visits gets a lot out of it and it really is as easy as making a phonecall and sending an email to organize. For anyone who can’t visit but has questions to ask just give us a call. Our number is in the books.
Happy Flying!!
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A and C,
Thanks for your feedback. I underestimated the number of aircraft that would be listening on 121.5MHz, but you put me straight on that one. I've now amended my drill so that an extra call would be made just before 'landing.'
Emergencies R Us,
Its quite interesting to learn that its easy to visit D&D. I am quite keen on visiting D&D, sadly living in Yorkshire, it would be a long drive. The weather is too unreliable to book a visit and fly down
POL
Thanks for your feedback. I underestimated the number of aircraft that would be listening on 121.5MHz, but you put me straight on that one.
I've now amended my drill so that an extra call would be made just before 'landing.'Emergencies R Us,
Its quite interesting to learn that its easy to visit D&D. I am quite keen on visiting D&D, sadly living in Yorkshire, it would be a long drive. The weather is too unreliable to book a visit and fly down
POL
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The Donkey Stops!
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah Blah! -
Right, you lot, The nearest SAR assett is Coastguard Echo November at Manston, infact manston ATC could spit on it from the tower - no that they do that much! - 121.5 bleating will galvanise Dover Coastguard and they'll just launch Echo November sharpish and two highly trained normal down to earth determined blokes or possibly one lady from Atlantic at Coventry will come and save you with a complimentary 11 man air droppable life raft amongst other things and some ribald comments or jokes about how fetching you look in dayglo -orange! 'Echo November' is away for a well earned pamper - 're-build' at the mo, but I believe either a 404 or a 406 is covering in the interim month or so! - She is of course G-BCEN - a BN Islander - bit of a local legend to those that know her - perhaps to to those that now do!
The French have a Dauphin or Alouette over the other side. of the two, I would prefer 'EN' as they always turn up! When she comes back she will be all weather day and night, though fish and chips is Tuesday night - if you could just avoid that!
Right, you lot, The nearest SAR assett is Coastguard Echo November at Manston, infact manston ATC could spit on it from the tower - no that they do that much! - 121.5 bleating will galvanise Dover Coastguard and they'll just launch Echo November sharpish and two highly trained normal down to earth determined blokes or possibly one lady from Atlantic at Coventry will come and save you with a complimentary 11 man air droppable life raft amongst other things and some ribald comments or jokes about how fetching you look in dayglo -orange! 'Echo November' is away for a well earned pamper - 're-build' at the mo, but I believe either a 404 or a 406 is covering in the interim month or so! - She is of course G-BCEN - a BN Islander - bit of a local legend to those that know her - perhaps to to those that now do!
The French have a Dauphin or Alouette over the other side. of the two, I would prefer 'EN' as they always turn up! When she comes back she will be all weather day and night, though fish and chips is Tuesday night - if you could just avoid that!
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Is that the counter pollution aircraft? I didn't realise she was equiped and nominated as a SAR asset. Great if they could find me and get a good position for a SAR helo but I'd rather not be bombed with a life raft. Can they get it close enough to be swimable for without risking a direct hit?
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Boom
No, her prime responsibility is to the Chanel Nav Information Service, But she can find you and drop to you (or near - no you don't want one landing on your head - they are HEAVY) Quite probably she will have got you to a nice warm hot chocky before the helis' even started up!
She does not do counter pollution as a primary roll though obviously she concerns herself with it should it come to light. Pollution is the 404 / 406 domain. So new toys means new potential - oh the excitement!- they'll have to put her on the TV Coastguard program now and the other forgotten fixed wing assets!
Basically boom big brother is watching over you!
PS: if you do end up in the drink with a raft - do get in it, it will make it easier for people to see you and avoid running over you!
She does not do counter pollution as a primary roll though obviously she concerns herself with it should it come to light. Pollution is the 404 / 406 domain. So new toys means new potential - oh the excitement!- they'll have to put her on the TV Coastguard program now and the other forgotten fixed wing assets!
Basically boom big brother is watching over you!
PS: if you do end up in the drink with a raft - do get in it, it will make it easier for people to see you and avoid running over you!
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Thanks for the advice, Tonka. Mind you given that ships can't seem to miss a blooming great sunken car carrier, I doubt being in a life raft will make much difference to the chances of being run down.
Does EN have FLIR?
Does EN have FLIR?
Last edited by boomerangben; 27th Jul 2005 at 08:37.
On a visit to D & D, some years ago, we were told the story of the guy who ditched his PA 28 south of the Isle of Wight (maybe even at night I think). He did not get through to anyone.. (too low).. but got picked up very quickly.. How?
Well, he squawked 7700 and the alarm bells went off for a very brief second at D&D, even though the squawk was only seen on ONE radar sweep, as he went into the water.
The guys replayed the tape several times, plotted the position and sent the chopper out.
A VERY relieved pilot.
Moral...get the squawk on IMMEDIATELY.
Then talk to 121.5...preferably to a Brit..so as to remove any language problems. (IMHO).
UV
Well, he squawked 7700 and the alarm bells went off for a very brief second at D&D, even though the squawk was only seen on ONE radar sweep, as he went into the water.
The guys replayed the tape several times, plotted the position and sent the chopper out.
A VERY relieved pilot.
Moral...get the squawk on IMMEDIATELY.
Then talk to 121.5...preferably to a Brit..so as to remove any language problems. (IMHO).
UV