Help! IFR to Deauville this weekend
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Help! IFR to Deauville this weekend
To anyone who channel hops IFR regularly, I really appreciate some advice. I'm planning to go to airways to Deuville this weekend from Wycombe. My IR is freshly minted so I'm relatively inexperienced going anywhere other than via Daventry...
My problem is the route back. Getting there seems no problem- A34 to SITET for the STAR.
How to get back though? The nearest 3 airways are one way, though there's a SID to ETRAT which is on A34.
If anyone has experience of this route I'd appreciate any advice. For example how about direct to MID? Would they throw that out? Otherwise it's going to be a right old round the houses job.
As a general point, does anyone know what resources are out there for the newly wet behind the ears IR qualified pilot? Most of the literature out there seems to be geared towards getting the actual rating. I've heard a rumour that somewhere on the Eurocontrol's website you can enter a route and see if the computer likes it or not - anyone know of such a place? (I can't find it!)
Any advice greatly recieved,
S-S
My problem is the route back. Getting there seems no problem- A34 to SITET for the STAR.
How to get back though? The nearest 3 airways are one way, though there's a SID to ETRAT which is on A34.
If anyone has experience of this route I'd appreciate any advice. For example how about direct to MID? Would they throw that out? Otherwise it's going to be a right old round the houses job.
As a general point, does anyone know what resources are out there for the newly wet behind the ears IR qualified pilot? Most of the literature out there seems to be geared towards getting the actual rating. I've heard a rumour that somewhere on the Eurocontrol's website you can enter a route and see if the computer likes it or not - anyone know of such a place? (I can't find it!)
Any advice greatly recieved,
S-S
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There's a very effective group called PPL/IR Europe that you should take a look at:
www.pplir.org
I'm sure that that they will be able to help you.
Do expect to arrive at Deauville with a need to make an approach down to minimums, even if the forecast conditions were cavok when you left Booker..... I have been caught out a couple of times now by the rapidly expanding sea fog! Plan for the worst and you can't go wrong.
www.pplir.org
I'm sure that that they will be able to help you.
Do expect to arrive at Deauville with a need to make an approach down to minimums, even if the forecast conditions were cavok when you left Booker..... I have been caught out a couple of times now by the rapidly expanding sea fog! Plan for the worst and you can't go wrong.
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This is a common problem, the airways routes near Deauville all point the wrong way.
My top tip, since you are heading to the West of London would be to file
CAN G4 JSY DCT ORTAC N866 SAM R41 NORRY DCT
It looks longwinded, but it passes the Eurocontrol test, and in reality, the French controllers will normally route you direct to ORTAC for the crossing along N866
2D
My top tip, since you are heading to the West of London would be to file
CAN G4 JSY DCT ORTAC N866 SAM R41 NORRY DCT
It looks longwinded, but it passes the Eurocontrol test, and in reality, the French controllers will normally route you direct to ORTAC for the crossing along N866
2D
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Hi there,
As one who you might actually speak to on the way to/from LFRG I would expect you to come back the way you went, i.e. via GWC/MID.. SITET.. DVL
The reality is that at FL100 and below you are not really a major problem to S18 (Seaford), but more of an issue to TMA (SW).
How this fits with the automatics in BRU I'm not sure, but it is the way I would expect to route you. (DVL to ORTAC seems such a long way out of the way for EGTB, less for the westcountry)
Rgds BEX
As one who you might actually speak to on the way to/from LFRG I would expect you to come back the way you went, i.e. via GWC/MID.. SITET.. DVL
The reality is that at FL100 and below you are not really a major problem to S18 (Seaford), but more of an issue to TMA (SW).
How this fits with the automatics in BRU I'm not sure, but it is the way I would expect to route you. (DVL to ORTAC seems such a long way out of the way for EGTB, less for the westcountry)
Rgds BEX
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The trouble BEXIL is that you can't file that route and get it approved by Brussels. You end up having to file a rather more contorted route (such as the one I suggest) and then, if you're lucky, getting cleared rather more directly. The route I end up getting back from Deauville IFR differs every single time. I have yet to have to pass over ORTAC, but I've come close.
The route checker that you were asking about in your first post is here
This passes airways routing through the same logic used by the CFMU system at Eurocontrol. This will at least tell you whether or not a route is valid. What it does not help with is predicting the route that you will actually fly. You can contrive all sorts of routes that will pass muster with the software, but which will absolutely not happen when you try to take off.
2D
The route checker that you were asking about in your first post is here
This passes airways routing through the same logic used by the CFMU system at Eurocontrol. This will at least tell you whether or not a route is valid. What it does not help with is predicting the route that you will actually fly. You can contrive all sorts of routes that will pass muster with the software, but which will absolutely not happen when you try to take off.
2D
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2D,
As I thought. Theory (Brussels Route) and Practice (the short way) being two different things.
Does filing DCT points "fool" the machine at all? If not it doesn't matter as long as you get "something" filed.
The people at PARIS (LN Sector) often ring and ask if it's ok to send a Deauville outbound north via SITET, and we usually have no objection, particularly if its at FL100 and below. Perhaps it's worth asking Deauville before you depart if you can route via SITET?
I can't see them objecting because there's usually nothing at all to conflict at the lower levels, and they have to make a call anyway, either to BREST ID if you go NW, or to us on S18 at Swanwick, so no "extra" work for them.
Even if your FPL doesn't get into the UK system my assistant colleagues are very good at getting the details from the French and cobbling something together in NAS so we have details.
rgds BEX
As I thought. Theory (Brussels Route) and Practice (the short way) being two different things.
Does filing DCT points "fool" the machine at all? If not it doesn't matter as long as you get "something" filed.
The people at PARIS (LN Sector) often ring and ask if it's ok to send a Deauville outbound north via SITET, and we usually have no objection, particularly if its at FL100 and below. Perhaps it's worth asking Deauville before you depart if you can route via SITET?
I can't see them objecting because there's usually nothing at all to conflict at the lower levels, and they have to make a call anyway, either to BREST ID if you go NW, or to us on S18 at Swanwick, so no "extra" work for them.
Even if your FPL doesn't get into the UK system my assistant colleagues are very good at getting the details from the French and cobbling something together in NAS so we have details.
rgds BEX
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Careful use of DCT can fool the machine into accepting a plan. The rules regarding maximum distances on DCTs are different from country to country, and the computer knows them all 
Logistically at Deauville, you can't talk to ATC as such - in fact flight plans are filed by Minitel terminal at the foot of the tower. From experience, the best bet is to ask for Direct as you taxi out, and hope for the best. SITET-MID, or even DCT MID does occasionally happen, just as you say.
2D
Logistically at Deauville, you can't talk to ATC as such - in fact flight plans are filed by Minitel terminal at the foot of the tower. From experience, the best bet is to ask for Direct as you taxi out, and hope for the best. SITET-MID, or even DCT MID does occasionally happen, just as you say.
2D
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Six-Sixty,
When we came back airways from Le Mans to Wycombe in 2002 we routed DVL DCT SITET DCT GWC DCT WOD at FL100. However, things may have chnaged since then.
Brooklands
When we came back airways from Le Mans to Wycombe in 2002 we routed DVL DCT SITET DCT GWC DCT WOD at FL100. However, things may have chnaged since then.
Brooklands
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Two comments about that routing.
Firstly it would be rejected today, since the DCT SITET-GWC breaks the rules relating to DCTs within UK airspace.
Secondly, routes such as that are not "airways" routings as such. It is a prime example of a lazy-mans route in which no attempt is made to file along accepted IFR routings; instead a route is constructed which passes the syntax checker in Brussels but achieves little else. This kind of routing creates work for somebody figuring out where they actually can send you without causing trouble.
The Standard Route Documents (SRDs) published by each of the Eurocontrol member states makes worthwhile (if boring) reading when the subject of routes comes up. You can find the UK SRD under the main documents menu on the AIS site. This provides the "expected" routes from each IFR airport in the UK to each other airport and all UK FIR exit points.
Time spent taking a look at that (and its foreign equivalents) will give you a much better idea of what CFMU wants you to file, as well as ensuring that your filed routing is accepted.
2D
Firstly it would be rejected today, since the DCT SITET-GWC breaks the rules relating to DCTs within UK airspace.
Secondly, routes such as that are not "airways" routings as such. It is a prime example of a lazy-mans route in which no attempt is made to file along accepted IFR routings; instead a route is constructed which passes the syntax checker in Brussels but achieves little else. This kind of routing creates work for somebody figuring out where they actually can send you without causing trouble.
The Standard Route Documents (SRDs) published by each of the Eurocontrol member states makes worthwhile (if boring) reading when the subject of routes comes up. You can find the UK SRD under the main documents menu on the AIS site. This provides the "expected" routes from each IFR airport in the UK to each other airport and all UK FIR exit points.
Time spent taking a look at that (and its foreign equivalents) will give you a much better idea of what CFMU wants you to file, as well as ensuring that your filed routing is accepted.
2D
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Much appreciated insight everyone thanks. There's more to this lark than the simple straightforward routes we flew in training.
So essentially, trying to fly DCT is not the done thing, and plan for the nearest most sensible route, in the hope that ATC will accomodate and send you more expeditiously if they can?
Off to play with that Eurocontrol site now.
PS anyone use & recommend the Jepp IFR flight planning software? The whole thing sounds a bit too complex to be left to software to me!
thanks again, SS
So essentially, trying to fly DCT is not the done thing, and plan for the nearest most sensible route, in the hope that ATC will accomodate and send you more expeditiously if they can?
Off to play with that Eurocontrol site now.
PS anyone use & recommend the Jepp IFR flight planning software? The whole thing sounds a bit too complex to be left to software to me!
thanks again, SS
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Alternatively, you could file IFR at FL 60 to DRAKE, leave the airway system at DRAKE, and scoot along underneath the airway at up to FL80 in places, descending to stay beneath CAS at GWC. I have done this a couple of times with no problem, provided you stick to correct quadrantals (no radar service available below CAS). I seem to remember being transferred to Lille Approach then Paris Control and then London Info on leaving the airway.
There is no real benefit in trying to stay high once you get over the UK coast as TC will be keen to get you down just north of SAM/GWC to get out of the way of their departures.
The only benefit of going the ORTAC way is the buzz you might get of using your shiny new IR inside the airways system in both directions. The extra miles will cost you a few quid more for that buzz! (This is not a snide comment: I did get a buzz the first few times!)
There is no real benefit in trying to stay high once you get over the UK coast as TC will be keen to get you down just north of SAM/GWC to get out of the way of their departures.
The only benefit of going the ORTAC way is the buzz you might get of using your shiny new IR inside the airways system in both directions. The extra miles will cost you a few quid more for that buzz! (This is not a snide comment: I did get a buzz the first few times!)
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Aha! That sounds like a good compromise, assumiong I'll be VMC after the via the SID to NEVIL then G27 to DRAKE, or DCT our of Deauville?
I now have new respect for flight plan/ops people - this is an inexact science!
I now have new respect for flight plan/ops people - this is an inexact science!
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2Ds,
Interesting. I should have pointed out in my posting that I was only a passenger on the flight. PiC was an experienced FI/IR ex-ATCO (Heathrow or West Drayton not sure which), so I assumed that we were doing something which was valid.
Brooklands
Interesting. I should have pointed out in my posting that I was only a passenger on the flight. PiC was an experienced FI/IR ex-ATCO (Heathrow or West Drayton not sure which), so I assumed that we were doing something which was valid.
Brooklands
